the Ukrainian insurgent army,collaborators or resistants?

Discussions on every day life in the Weimar Republic, pre-anschluss Austria, Third Reich and the occupied territories. Hosted by Vikki.
Locked
User avatar
Qvist
Member
Posts: 7836
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 17:59
Location: Europe

#181

Post by Qvist » 13 Jun 2006, 10:35

Hello AdaOg
And for me the main topic is UPA. So I wanted to show the background of the later events. For me the picture must be completed as analysis of the tragedy of WTC (9.11.2001) cannot be started since 8.11.2001. If you do not think so I would obey your decision.
No, as said and as you rightly point out, this is relevant as context. I asked just that we remember the distinction between these and the actions of specific organisations, as it seemed that that distinction was in danger of becoming blurred into invisibility. No problem in this regard with your last post.

cheers

User avatar
AdaOg
Member
Posts: 134
Joined: 29 Dec 2005, 10:58
Location: Gdynia

#182

Post by AdaOg » 13 Jun 2006, 13:50

Qvist - Thanks a lot :-) for understanding. ps. - moderating topics concerning Eastern Europeans - always means troubles. Our problems start about 300 b.c. and they remain until 2006 a.d. I wish you patience and as little nerves as it is possible :D



I want to pay your atention on Ukrainian Professor Wiktor Poliszczuk's work "Prooves of crimes of OUN UPA".It is mainly based on examined by the author documantal sources of OUN - they are gathered in state archieves in Kijev and Rowne . Besides those sources, Mr. Poliszczuk examined collection of microfilms of Moscow Archives /they are in Robarts Research Library in Toronto now/, photocopies of documents of the Archive of Old Records in Warsaw, copies of sources given to Mr Poliszczuk by other scientists and witness reports commig from over 1.000 people and other sources. The work contains over 3.500 source's notes. Wiktor Poliszczuk in his work prooves that UPA, had not features neither of resistance movement nor the underground army - even nor uprising army. It was military formation (who realized ideological principles of OUN) - first of all responsible for making planned extermination of Polish civilians both genders and in different age, using extremely cruel ways of murdering - group and individual even in churches during services. In his work author showed lack of support for the OUN and UPA comming form Ukrainian society. It must be mentioned that the nationalistic structures of Ukrainian OUN UPA were not recognised as official Ukrainian national liberation movement neither by Ukrainian parliament (but as I know there are works on that) nor by World Federation of WW II War Veterans. Work of Mr Poliszczuk also brings the prooves of OUN collaboration with nazi Germany with preparation of aggression on Poland in 1939 and on Russia 1941.


Petro
Member
Posts: 39
Joined: 18 Apr 2006, 00:34
Location: Ukraine

#183

Post by Petro » 14 Jun 2006, 01:34

First of all, it's Kyiv and Rivne.
Ada, you shouldn't believe what Viktor Polishchuk writes. The tactics he uses are the same as those used by the Soviet "historians". I will be the first to acknowledge that the UPA made some mistakes but Polishchuk's "works" were certainly paid for by someone.
The things that you are saying are offensive for the Ukrainian nation. Do you know that after the resistance stopped there were many Ukrainian villages in Galicia where no single young man (16-20 years old) survived. They all died fighting for high ideals, for an independent Ukraine.

Manweru
Member
Posts: 120
Joined: 18 Nov 2005, 06:40
Location: Poland

#184

Post by Manweru » 14 Jun 2006, 02:12

Petro wrote:First of all, it's Kyiv and Rivne.
Ada, you shouldn't believe what Viktor Polishchuk writes. The tactics he uses are the same as those used by the Soviet "historians". I will be the first to acknowledge that the UPA made some mistakes but Polishchuk's "works" were certainly paid for by someone.
I'm not familiar with Polishczuk's works, but I think that if you are calling him uncredible, you should provide some kind of examples or at least specify your accusations more. BTW I'm not defending him, it's quite possible you are right, but I don't think that general imprecise accusations like that are a good way to go.
The things that you are saying are offensive for the Ukrainian nation. Do you know that after the resistance stopped there were many Ukrainian villages in Galicia where no single young man (16-20 years old) survived. They all died fighting for high ideals, for an independent Ukraine.
1. I think that it's not relevant if something is "offensive" to anybody- cause this is a subjective issue, anybody can call anything 'offensive',especially a uncomfortable historical fact. The thing which should matter most is if something is true or not - we should be dealing with historical facts first, feelings second.

2. I think you should not claim that attacking UPA is offensive to the Ukrainian nation as such - many Ukrainians consider UPA to be a criminal organisation, BTW because of that there was big discussion in Ukraine about giving UPA veterans recognition as veterans of a legal fighting force. AFAIK The view which you and Askold represent is the dominant one in Galicia, but not in other regions of Ukraine.



M.

User avatar
Qvist
Member
Posts: 7836
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 17:59
Location: Europe

#185

Post by Qvist » 14 Jun 2006, 08:02

Let me repeat:

- avoid personal insults
- avoid national slurs
- avoid unwarranted generalisations
- avoid unsourced opinions
- accept the fact that there are different ways of seeing this, and that these are nnot neccessarily due to malice or national prejudices
- accept the requirement to support points made with sources and arguments rather than with assertions


Dismissing historiography without argument, and arguing that a negative viewpoint on the UPA as offensive to the ukrainian nation, is simply not acceptable discussion behavior. Petro - if you cannot accept that, I suggest you stay out of the discussion.

If anyone feels anything is still unclear regarding the proper limits of this discussion, now's a good time to get clarification, because henceforth I will be deleting any post that contains further transgressions without warning or comment.

cheers

User avatar
Askold
Member
Posts: 1848
Joined: 23 Mar 2002, 09:30
Location: Ukraine
Contact:

#186

Post by Askold » 14 Jun 2006, 20:59

AdaOg:
Ewa Siemaszko based her information on analyse of about 2500 sources (witness reports, polls, church demise books , court evidences , documents gathered by governmental institution Polish Institute of Rememberance , documents of Polish Underground State, publications)
- That sounds great, but where is this shown in the article? If this is an academic work, it has to have supporting bibligraphyk, which I don't see in her work.
No, as said and as you rightly point out, this is relevant as context. I asked just that we remember the distinction between these and the actions of specific organisations, as it seemed that that distinction was in danger of becoming blurred into invisibility. No problem in this regard with your last post.
- How is posting repeated examples of alleged warcrimes is adding to the original discussion on the question if UPA were collaborators or freedom fighters? By repeatedly doing so, you try to change the nature of the topic to warcrimes (which you tried since day one). If I had nothing beter to do, I would take the book on Pacification, and start posting names of 10 murdered Ukrainians each day. I would completely overlook any arguments, and again will post 10 names of murdered Ukrainians. And the next day and the next day and the next day. What kind of discussion would that be?

Manweru:

The reasons why Polischuks work is not credible were already stated, re-read Petro's post.
The view which you and Askold represent is the dominant one in Galicia, but not in other regions of Ukraine.
- - avoid unwarranted generalisations
- avoid unsourced opinions
- If you can't stay on the topic, why do you keep bothering?

Manweru
Member
Posts: 120
Joined: 18 Nov 2005, 06:40
Location: Poland

#187

Post by Manweru » 14 Jun 2006, 23:43

Askold wrote: - How is posting repeated examples of alleged warcrimes is adding to the original discussion on the question if UPA were collaborators or freedom fighters?
You are right here - new topic should be made ,for general discussion about UPA.
Manweru:

The reasons why Polischuks work is not credible were already stated, re-read Petro's post.
You mean "~tactics like that of Soviet historians"??? - that's hardly any kind of serious argument, in fact hardly an argument at all.
The view which you and Askold represent is the dominant one in Galicia, but not in other regions of Ukraine.
- - avoid unwarranted generalisations
- avoid unsourced opinions
Ok, I will try to find some reference for it, my knowledge of it comes largely from private IRL conversations.


M.

User avatar
Qvist
Member
Posts: 7836
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 17:59
Location: Europe

#188

Post by Qvist » 15 Jun 2006, 08:39

Hi Askold
- How is posting repeated examples of alleged warcrimes is adding to the original discussion on the question if UPA were collaborators or freedom fighters? By repeatedly doing so, you try to change the nature of the topic to warcrimes (which you tried since day one). If I had nothing beter to do, I would take the book on Pacification, and start posting names of 10 murdered Ukrainians each day. I would completely overlook any arguments, and again will post 10 names of murdered Ukrainians. And the next day and the next day and the next day. What kind of discussion would that be?
It is relevant because it goes towards the context in which the UPAs actions took place. The UPAs actions against the Polish population is an important part of its general outlook, and can hardly be divorced from a discussion of its general character. Then it is up to you and other posters to relate that issue in a constructive way to the more general issue of collaboration versus freedom fighters. To start posting an equivalent number of ukrainian names would as far as I can see not be to do that.

cheers

User avatar
Askold
Member
Posts: 1848
Joined: 23 Mar 2002, 09:30
Location: Ukraine
Contact:

#189

Post by Askold » 16 Jun 2006, 19:33

Quist:

It is relevant because it goes towards the context in which the UPAs actions took place. The UPAs actions against the Polish population is an important part of its general outlook, and can hardly be divorced from a discussion of its general character.
- Sorry, but I don't see a clear relation between Ukrainian Polish war crimes and subject of Collaboration vs Freedom fighting. Can you tell me how the two terms are related and support your claims?

Then it is up to you and other posters to relate that issue in a constructive way to the more general issue of collaboration versus freedom fighters. To start posting an equivalent number of ukrainian names would as far as I can see not be to do that.
- So one individual constantly posting Polish names is constructive (considering its already off topic), while doing the same for Ukrainian side would not be constructive? New double standards?

User avatar
Qvist
Member
Posts: 7836
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 17:59
Location: Europe

#190

Post by Qvist » 17 Jun 2006, 10:13

Askold,
Sorry, but I don't see a clear relation between Ukrainian Polish war crimes and subject of Collaboration vs Freedom fighting. Can you tell me how the two terms are related and support your claims?
The relation isn't clear - that is why this is relevant on the level of context. It is a reasonable possibility that the UPAs actions against the polish population is a relevant aspect of the UPAs general character in this regard - if for nothing else because it invlved the organisation in conflict with the AK, which was on its side clearly a part of the allied war effort against the Germans. Conceivably it can be accounted an aspect that cuts across the issue of collaborationism, if so this needs to be shown. Polish actions against ukrainians on its side belongs to the context that is neccessary to explain the evolvement of the UPA. So, the extent and way in which this relates to the overall issue is up to posters to establish. It should not be the issue, but it clearly cannot be excluded from the discussion. If you feel further need to discuss this, I suggest we do so by PM.
- So one individual constantly posting Polish names is constructive (considering its already off topic), while doing the same for Ukrainian side would not be constructive? New double standards?
There are no double standards either old or new. You polemically asked if it would be a good approach to the discussion to post ten ukrainian cases for every ten polish cases, and you got what I believe is the obvious answer, which is "no". The reason why that is the obvious answer to the question is of course that such an approach would not amount to a meaningful discussion. If there is a reasonable need to quote specific cases in support of a constructive argument, you are free to do so.

cheers

User avatar
AdaOg
Member
Posts: 134
Joined: 29 Dec 2005, 10:58
Location: Gdynia

#191

Post by AdaOg » 19 Jun 2006, 13:59

Petro wrote:First of all, it's Kyiv and Rivne.
Ada, you shouldn't believe what Viktor Polishchuk writes. The tactics he uses are the same as those used by the Soviet "historians". I will be the first to acknowledge that the UPA made some mistakes but Polishchuk's "works" were certainly paid for by someone.
The things that you are saying are offensive for the Ukrainian nation. Do you know that after the resistance stopped there were many Ukrainian villages in Galicia where no single young man (16-20 years old) survived. They all died fighting for high ideals, for an independent Ukraine.


1. I cannot ofend Ukrainians as I live ONLY thanks to Ukrainians, as I wrote before.
2. You are absolutely right. There were planned rataliations! Not in such large number as murderers on Poles, not so cruel. But still they were. But that fact do not EXCUSE UPA murderers on Poles and Jews!
No the people died not for independent Ukraine but because of UPA. UPA was not fighting with Poles for clear way for independence - they were just murdering civilians. Our men were fighting for Britain in battle of Britain, in Africa, in whole Europe. Your UPA was killing their helpless women, parents and children and Ukrainians who did not shared UPA's minds.

As to Mr Poliszczuk he bases on sources. Clear sources. I believe him more than to the Polish historians.
http://www.akowcy.de/
It was cleared soon that assaults on Polish villages close to the Christmas in Kowel dostrict were not accidental. E.g. there were murdered 40 people in Łuck suburbia so called Barbaszczyzna. No peace in Kowel and Włodzimierz. Such accidents were taken as the reason of the retaliations actions. Such actions were to stop UPA killing innocent Polish civilians.
We received orders to retaliate in Klusk village, where we were ordered to kill every man since 16 to 60 . I considered the terroristic act as justified and reasonable - and we did not consider that as classical " eye for eye" - we would not be albe to do that. (...)

We approached to the first hut and we ordered peasants to leave the hut. Whole family went out obediently: father , son, mother and daughter. I ordered men to stay close to the wall. I looked at my colleagues. They are standing silent, nobody wants to do anything. I feel discouraging . But order was clear-cut. They (colleagues) are trying to check me? I cannot raise a rifle and aid at innocent man..... I shoot from the hip level. The boy had fallen with the lifted leg and screams frightfully. Parents are screaming or praying loudly - I do not know. I cannot stand that situation. I leave that place without looking back. It was 54 years ago but still I cannot forget that event.

In the evening came to me colleague "S".

"You are the real son of the b....", he said, "if you wanted obey the order and kill people you should just did it - not making suffering".

I did not answer. Nothing justified me. I would never do that again. Maybe if "S" knew that I was just 16 years old, he would treat me in different way....

(...)

The last retaliatory action took place in March 1943 in Stawki village. I decided to act in a way - I would not have further remorses. (...) We were shelled from that village. I went in as the first soldier to the first hut. As in the first time I ordered people to get away from the hut. Two women went away from the house. I was happy that there were no men among them. I had to check the hut if there were not hidden Upa-men. Suddenly to "my women" came "J." and from the small distance shot them in their heads. I felt co-guilty for that unnecesary death.

The fragment of the memoirs of AK member. Extremely interesting information are included.

User avatar
AdaOg
Member
Posts: 134
Joined: 29 Dec 2005, 10:58
Location: Gdynia

#192

Post by AdaOg » 19 Jun 2006, 14:31

Askold wrote:AdaOg:

- How is posting repeated examples of alleged warcrimes is adding to the original discussion on the question if UPA were collaborators or freedom fighters? By repeatedly doing so, you try to change the nature of the topic to warcrimes (which you tried since day one). If I had nothing beter to do, I would take the book on Pacification, and start posting names of 10 murdered Ukrainians each day. I would completely overlook any arguments, and again will post 10 names of murdered Ukrainians. And the next day and the next day and the next day. What kind of discussion would that be?
Write names of Ukrainians killed by UPA. Longer list. If you want to I can help You. And of killed Poles (e.g. 13 people from my family)and Jews. Good luck, but others will die with boredom. :roll:

Petro
Member
Posts: 39
Joined: 18 Apr 2006, 00:34
Location: Ukraine

#193

Post by Petro » 22 Jun 2006, 01:57

Ada, why can't you understand that this was a great tragedy which touched BOTH nations. Noone can be fully blamed for it.

1.Someone mentioned Andriy Sheptyzkyj earlier on and the fact that he didn't support the OUN. Well, for your information Sheptyckyj gave his blessing to the independent Ukrainian state which was created on the 30th of June 1941. He may not have supported the OUN before the war but he was ready to support them if they were to fufil his dream - an indepenndent Ukraine.
The ethnic violence between Poles and Ukrainians started around 1940 in Zakersonnya. Sheptyckyj and other Ukrainian figures called to the Poles to stop killing civilians. I repeat again. The first anti Polish actions in Volyn' were pay back actions for the terror in Zakersonnya.

2 " No the people died not for independent Ukraine but because of UPA. UPA was not fighting with Poles for clear way for independence - they were just murdering civilians".

Ada, sorry but this is an extremely stupid statement. The main goal of the OUN and the UPA at any point was the formation of a free and independent Ukraine. Do you deny that there were 200.000 people involved in the movement? Do you realize that thousands of them died fighting for my freedom, for the freedom of my homeland.
The people I am talking about, ten of thousands of young Ukrainian men all died in forest clashes with the NKVD and the cold death camps of Siberia. The OUN-UPA movement was always organized as a movement for a free Ukraine. On the other hand the Polish armed groups which started terrorizing Ukrainians in Zakersonnya in 1940 didn't have any aims other than chauvinism.

BTW, you seem to concentrate on the UPA during the German occupation but don't seem to pay attention to the UPA under Soviet occupation. Most of your "Ukrainian victims" came at that time. I am not denying that some Ukrainians were killed by UPA units but like I said before those Ukrainians were mostly collaborators with the Soviet "authorities". There might have been some mistakes as well but most of those killed were collaborators.

"and Jews!"

This is starting to be annoying. CAN YOU FINALLY PROVIDE PROOF THAT UPA KILLED JEWISH CIVILIANS? NO, YOU CAN'T BECAUSE THE UPA NEVER DID ANYTHING LIKE THAT! PERIOD.
Can you look logically at this? Why did the UPA fight the AK? Because the AK represented Poland and Poland wanted to include ethnic Ukrainian territories like Volyn and Eastern Galicia into its state. The Jews never wanted to create a Jewsish state on our land.

"UPA was not fighting with Poles for clear way for independence - they were just murdering civilians"

Highly biased and simply stupid.

Petro
Member
Posts: 39
Joined: 18 Apr 2006, 00:34
Location: Ukraine

#194

Post by Petro » 22 Jun 2006, 02:10

"Our men were fighting for Britain in battle of Britain, in Africa, in whole Europe. Your UPA was killing..."

Ada, one more thing. And our men were fighting the Germans in the Polish army. I wonder why so many Ukrainian men fought for a country who hated them??? Face it. The induction of Western Ukraine into Poland at the start of the 20s was an illegal and unwise act. But even more unwise was the Polish policy towards Ukrainians. My grandmother remembers to this day how she was beaten by the teacher at school for speaking Ukrainian. Face it. Your country from 1920 till 1938 was an occupant on Ukrainian territory. What could be expected other than resistance?

User avatar
Qvist
Member
Posts: 7836
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 17:59
Location: Europe

#195

Post by Qvist » 22 Jun 2006, 08:50

Since it is obviously not possible to discuss this issue without the discussion descending to statements like this:
Highly biased and simply stupid.
and since a number of attempts to regulate it has obviously been in vain, this thread is closed.

Locked

Return to “Life in the Third Reich & Weimar Republic”