the Ukrainian insurgent army,collaborators or resistants?

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Kunikov
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#61

Post by Kunikov » 11 Dec 2005, 19:48

Askold wrote:Interesting topic, but its full of myths:
slaughtering Jewish
- This idea was developed by Soviet authorities to discredid UPA, later it was picked up by Poles and Wiental, as a general lable to portray Ukrainian nationalists as Jew hating nazis. The fact is, UPA not only did not attack the Jews, but even hosted number of them in the forest from the German persectutions. On top of this Jews even served in UPA. If anyone has ever read The Chronicles of UPA (Hronika UPA) - they frequently mention number of Jews serving as medics in UPA field hospitals.

My grandfather was at the trail of a UPA memeber who when the Red Army was retreating in 1941 entered a village with others from the UPA and he personally ripped apart a Jewish baby, the arm from the body, he got 20 years. They were anti-semites and if you read Jewish Partisan memoirs you'll see that both Russian and Ukrainian partisans on a large basis treated them as outsiders, taking away their rifles if they had any, or simply turning them away. The Jews that served as medics are a special case, they were NEEDED.

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#62

Post by Kunikov » 11 Dec 2005, 19:50

Larry D. wrote:Askold -

I dunno, this stuff about killing Jews, Poles and collaboration with the Nazis is in a lot of Western history books. I guess the Ukrainian nationalists need to rise up around the world and stage protest marches against all of this slander that has been going on for the past 60 years. Maybe they could sue all of the university professors and other authors as well as all of those nasty Jewish organizations who have made these claims. If they won, that could bring millions and maybe billions of dollars into the government in Kiev and make life better for all of the Ukrainian people. If I wasn't so old, I'd even help you out. But I guess your first step would be to do a 5-year survey of all of the Western history books that have libeled the UPA and the OUN so you can identify the authors and the publishers responsible for them. You are good in English so maybe you could lead that effort. Then you can move against these slanderers and detractors in the courts. This may be a great opportunity, Askold, and you should give it some thought. Maybe your first target should be the very wealthy board of trustees of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington because they are said to have a lot of documents on this subject. It would be a great service to the world to bring an end to this madness and get the record straightened out. We have all been terribly mislead for all of these years and this horrible injustice needs to be corrected.

Best regards,

--Larry
I hope he gets into the billions...


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#63

Post by Kunikov » 11 Dec 2005, 20:02

Benoit Douville wrote:I must agree with Kat, the Poles were the only nation to occupied Moscow with a victory by the Hetman Stanislaw Zolkiewski at Kluszyn in 1610, the Polish Army entered Moscow. The Poles also stopped the Soviets from invading Europe on the Vistula in warsaw in 1920 with Pilsudski.
Outstanding!

Regards
Are you serious? The Poles attacked the Red army...how the hell were the "Soviets" who didn't exist at the time, invading Europe?

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#64

Post by Dmitry » 11 Dec 2005, 20:04

batu wrote:There might have been some border conflicts or Polish intervention into Russian civil war, but Reds invading Europe? I'm sorry, it's science fiction.
I'd say it's an ascientific fiction. The goal of the advance on Warsaw was limited in sovetisation of former province of Imperial Russia.

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#65

Post by kat » 12 Dec 2005, 00:09

"The war is referred to by several names. "Polish-Soviet War" may be the most common, but is potentially confusing since "Soviet" is usually thought of as relating to the Soviet Union, which (by contrast with "Soviet Russia") did not officially come into being until December 1922. Alternative names include "Russo-Polish War [or Polish-Russian War] of 1919-21" (to distinguish it from earlier Polish-Russian wars) and "Polish-Bolshevik War." This second term (or just "Bolshevik War" (Polish: Wojna bolszewicka) is most common in Polish sources. In some Polish sources it has also come down as the "War of 1920" (Polish: Wojna 1920 roku), while Soviet historians often either called it the "War against White Poland" or considered it a part of the "War against Foreign Intervention" or of the Russian Civil War."

This qoutation comes from Wikipedia and rest of it You can find here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Soviet_war
Wether Bolscheviks stop in Poland or go further after they were victorius I leave it to judge it by Your selves.
And lets just stop this Polish subject which jumped like the devil from the box and God damned I am mainly responsible for that :?

Back to the UPA.

And by the way Askold wrote
There was a joint AK-UPA operation against the Germans, which was a complete success. If you want I can dig up the info on it.
I have dug. There was only two confirmed joint operations of UPA and AK-WiN (Home Army-Liberty and Independence). Both of them was against NKWD and Polish Security Office (UB).

Action on Hrubieschow (city in Poland) begun in the night on 27th May 1946. At that they about 17.00 PM in the forest near Hrubieschow members of AK-WiN met with UPA. Ukrainians were commanded był Jewhen Schtendera "Prirwa", Poles were commanded propably by Lieutenant "Azja". The city was attacked by 150 soldiers of AK-WiN and 300 UPA. Some number of AK-WiN soldiers was securing the roads around the city. The main goal of this operation was to liberate the prisoners of the local prison, detroying the documents of the Displacement Commission and suppression of the local UB and NKWD garrisons. UPA action failed they were repulsed by strong NKWD forces.
Poles did better. They entered the UB seat, realesed the prisoners and taken the local communist party seat. Poles have killed the so called "Aces" (the local Polish communist party bonzos) and most cruel UB soldiers. At down Poles lived to their hide-outs and UPA withdraw into Sulecin direction.

Source Polish Institute of National Remembrance http://www.ipn.gov.pl/biuletyn/8/biuletyn8_6.html here is the English main page http://www.ipn.gov.pl/index_eng.html it is also available in Russian, French, German and Ukrainian

The second action was the attack on the Werbkowice rail station from where the transports with Ukrainians were sent to USSR and where was the seat of the official in charge of the Ukrainian Displacement Commission. From UPA side the attack was made by Wowka I Hundred led by Wasil Koltoniuk and from the AK-WiN side the group led by Lieutenant Zdzislaw Olechowski "Łoś".

Source Odkrywca History Forum http://www.odkrywca-online.pl/pokaz_watek.php?id=172568 unfortunately only in Polish.

So as You see I found nothing that Askold have written about. And by the way Home Army and Home Army - Liberty and Independece was a little different organizations, but it is not a place and time to explain it.

kat
Last edited by kat on 12 Dec 2005, 15:12, edited 1 time in total.

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#66

Post by Askold » 12 Dec 2005, 01:24

Kat:
but if You look at the UPA origins they come from OUN, Nachtigall and Roland Battallions which openly collaborated with Nazi Germans. UPA turned against Germans when it was clear that Hitler will never allow to build Ukrainian state. Untill then Ukrainians and Germans were allied.
- Yes, but we are not talking about OUN, but UPA. Again, I would like to hear of specific UPA-GERMAN cooperation.

Benoit:
I must agree with Kat, the Poles were the only nation to occupied Moscow with a victory by the Hetman Stanislaw Zolkiewski at Kluszyn in 1610, the Polish Army entered Moscow.
- Actually Moscow was also sacked by the Tartars, Lithuanians and Napoleon.

Kunikov:
My grandfather was at the trail of a UPA memeber who when the Red Army was retreating in 1941 entered a village with others from the UPA and he personally ripped apart a Jewish baby, the arm from the body, he got 20 years
- What and he didn't even eat the baby like all UPA soldiers? It is well known about the mock trials held by Soviet Union. UPA would not free Jews from KZ and Jews would not join UPA if UPA was anti-Jewish.

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#67

Post by Askold » 12 Dec 2005, 01:25

Kat:

Thanks for the info, you saved me lots of looking time ;)

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#68

Post by Kunikov » 12 Dec 2005, 03:16

Askold wrote:

- What and he didn't even eat the baby like all UPA soldiers? It is well known about the mock trials held by Soviet Union. UPA would not free Jews from KZ and Jews would not join UPA if UPA was anti-Jewish.
And when exactly where these Mock trials held? And why would the Soviet Union care about crimes against Jews only?

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#69

Post by Benoit Douville » 12 Dec 2005, 03:41

Batu,

About the Polish-Soviet War or the Polish-Russian War if you prefer... It is absolutely true that the Poles saved a huge part of Europe from Soviet domination, Hungary and Czechoslovakia that's for sure. This War, and the important events surrounding it, are virtually absent from most history books. This is surprising given the huge impact on Europe that would have occured had Poland lost this War.


Regards

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#70

Post by Kunikov » 12 Dec 2005, 05:09

Benoit Douville wrote:Batu,

About the Polish-Soviet War or the Polish-Russian War if you prefer... It is absolutely true that the Poles saved a huge part of Europe from Soviet domination, Hungary and Czechoslovakia that's for sure. This War, and the important events surrounding it, are virtually absent from most history books. This is surprising given the huge impact on Europe that would have occured had Poland lost this War.


Regards
What huge impact? The Red Army was in no shape for ANY type of invasion.

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#71

Post by batu » 12 Dec 2005, 11:39

Benoit Douville wrote:Batu,

About the Polish-Soviet War or the Polish-Russian War if you prefer... It is absolutely true that the Poles saved a huge part of Europe from Soviet domination, Hungary and Czechoslovakia that's for sure. This War, and the important events surrounding it, are virtually absent from most history books. This is surprising given the huge impact on Europe that would have occured had Poland lost this War.


Regards
Ok I agree, but only if you agree that Soviet Union saved China from the massive invasion of the Allied troops in 1945. You see the Americans and Brits were heading to Berlin with obvious intention to conquer China. They were stopped by the Soviets, fortunately, if not, they would proceed all the way to conquer Soviet Union and if Soviets would fall, the road to China would be open. so, thanks to Soviets Chinese were saved.

Actually Moscow principality saved India from Polish conquerors in 1610. When hetman Zilkovsky beat the mercenaries and Russians at Klushino, the road to India was open. But fortunately Russian patrioits Minin and Pozharsky, out of pure love for this wonderful country (India), collected the militia and massacred the Poles who were in Kremlin, thus saving India from the menace of Polish invasion. Jee, why don't they write about it in the study-books, I don't know. This was one of the most dangerous threats to India in the modern history.

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#72

Post by Musashi » 12 Dec 2005, 12:17

Batu, we are not talking about if the Red Army was able to invade Europe.
It was an official Soviet slogan: "Over dead body of panska Poland we will bring communism to entire Europe".

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#73

Post by Musashi » 12 Dec 2005, 12:30

Askold wrote:
Benoit Douville wrote:I must agree with Kat, the Poles were the only nation to occupied Moscow with a victory by the Hetman Stanislaw Zolkiewski at Kluszyn in 1610, the Polish Army entered Moscow.
- Actually Moscow was also sacked by the Tartars, Lithuanians and Napoleon.
Tatars burnt the city and did not stay there.
Napoleon entered a burnt city and left it.
I don't know about Lithuanians. Could you write me when it happened? It's nice to learn something new.
Probably it is a mistake to call these people "Lithuanians" as the official language of Grand Duchy of Lithuania was Oldbelorussian. For example I wrote Poles, Lithuanians, Belorussians and Ukrainian Cossacks took part in the battle of Klushino in 1610 on Commonwealth side.
Poles were the only nation who entered Moscow and were able to stay there for almost two years. That was Benoit's point.
Last edited by Musashi on 12 Dec 2005, 16:28, edited 1 time in total.

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#74

Post by kat » 12 Dec 2005, 15:28

Batu I was wrong I wrote in one of my posts that Russians hate Poles I have back out. Comparing them to You I must say that they simply love us. You are ignoring all facts and everything that doesn't fit to your point of view you are calling a Polish propaganda. Using your method I could debunk all of your arguments but what for?
I agree with You at one thing only.
Minin and Pozharsky were Russian patriots. They united Russians in the really democratic way. It was a real democratic civic movement which smashed agressors from their land. I think that should be the real spirit of that national holiday not some military victory but the winning of democracy in Russian society.
Last edited by kat on 13 Dec 2005, 12:46, edited 2 times in total.

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#75

Post by paratatruc » 12 Dec 2005, 15:29

I can't understand why it's claimed that the polish army saved the western civilisation during the polish-russiam war.
In 1920,Bela Kun was in exile, Eisner,Toller,Levien,Levine,Axelrod,Eglhoffer were dead or in jail.Any europeans countries had serious internal problems,
so the communist had'nt any chance to use worker rebellions in order to "export "their theories.
And although that since 1918 the level of the red army had tremendously improved, it was still shamelly defeated in 1920 by the insignifant forces of General Wrangel,and it took the army severals years to pacify the Basmatchis in central asia. My point is that if the soviet had decided tu use the military option against the capitalist world,they would have been easily defeated.
By the way someone recalled the french help to Poland in 1920. Recent studies show that the french officiers wanted to attack the russian frontaly,while it was the polish idea to exploit the delay of Stalin-Boudynni army near Lemberg and to attack the Toukhatchevski's flank.

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