the Ukrainian insurgent army,collaborators or resistants?

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kat
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#76

Post by kat » 12 Dec 2005, 17:36

Kunikov wrote:
What huge impact? The Red Army was in no shape for ANY type of invasion.
Russians started their offensive on 4th of July 1920. Commander-in-chief was general Siergey Kamenev. Russian forces were commanded by outstanding only 27 years old general Mihail Touhachewskij (propably the best in Red Army). He had four armies 3rd, 4th, 16th and most powerfull of them 15th.
This is the quotation from Tuhachewki's order to his armies: " At the West lies the fate of the whole-world revolution. Over Poland's dead body leads the way to the whole-world conflagration. To the Vilnius, to the Minsk, to the Warsaw - march!"

Here is the list of the books where you can read about this war:
J. N. Sergeyev - "From Dvina River to Vistula River" (unfortunetly I don't know the original title, translation is mine from the Polish title of this book)
Norman Davies - "White Eagle Red Star - The Polish Soviet War 1919-1920" Orbis Books London 1983
"The eighteenth decisive battle of the world: Warsaw, 1920 (Russian studies)" by Edgar Vincent D'Abernon
"La guerre polono-sovietique 1919-1920" Institut d'Etudes Slaves, Paris 1975
T. Komarnicki - "The Rebirth of Polish Republic. A Study in the Diplomatic History of Europe, 1914-1920" William Heinemann Ltd, London 1957

Regards

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Askold
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#77

Post by Askold » 12 Dec 2005, 20:35

And when exactly where these Mock trials held? And why would the Soviet Union care about crimes against Jews only?
- Since you brought this up - why don't you tell me when exactly did your grandfather went to such "trial"?

- Soviet Union would care about Jewish crimes to paint an overall image of Ukrainian nationalist as a Nazi and Jew-hater.


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Kunikov
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#78

Post by Kunikov » 12 Dec 2005, 20:41

kat wrote:
Kunikov wrote:
What huge impact? The Red Army was in no shape for ANY type of invasion.
Russians started their offensive on 4th of July 1920. Commander-in-chief was general Siergey Kamenev. Russian forces were commanded by outstanding only 27 years old general Mihail Touhachewskij (propably the best in Red Army). He had four armies 3rd, 4th, 16th and most powerfull of them 15th.
This is the quotation from Tuhachewki's order to his armies: " At the West lies the fate of the whole-world revolution. Over Poland's dead body leads the way to the whole-world conflagration. To the Vilnius, to the Minsk, to the Warsaw - march!"


Regards
They started their offensive after they were attacked, what Tukhachevsky said to his army is propaganda, it happens frequently, why don't you look at actual army orders.

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#79

Post by David Thompson » 12 Dec 2005, 21:29

A post from Kunikov containing an insulting personal remark was deleted by this moderator -- DT.

Let's get back on the topic -- the Ukrainian insurgent army -- and drop the insulting personal remarks. Further posts violating the civility rule will be subject to deletion.

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#80

Post by David Thompson » 13 Dec 2005, 21:25

Another post from Kunikov, repeating the insult mentioned in the deletion warning at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 468#814468 , was deleted by this moderator - DT.

Kunikov -- Be civil or be gone.

An assortment of off-topic posts, which immediately followed the warning posted at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 468#814468 , were deleted by this moderator as well.

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#81

Post by Manweru » 15 Dec 2005, 07:13

Kunikov wrote: My grandfather was at the trail of a UPA memeber who when the Red Army was retreating in 1941 entered a village with others from the UPA and he personally ripped apart a Jewish baby, the arm from the body, he got 20 years.
Askold wrote: - What and he didn't even eat the baby like all UPA soldiers?
Why do you make sarcastic remarks about it? It is known that many UPA soldiers have commited barbaric acts of cruelty (photo link below) against Polish civilians and children, do you find it unbelievable that at least some of them may have acted the same toward Jews?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Wolyn1943.jpg


As for the overall topic of UPA cooperation with the Germans, I do not think that UPA might be called either Nazi-collaborating or Nazi-resisting organisation- IMO it's two foremost activities where fighting the Soviets and comitting mass murder of civilians.


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Georgien
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#82

Post by Georgien » 15 Dec 2005, 18:49

Manweru

That photo is very popular one. Unfortunately, its a black mark on UPA movement. I did little research on that photo a while ago. Most of the sources (non Polish ones) point to the UPA. However, nowhere it is indicated that Stepan Bendera had anything to do with the massacres of Polish. His main agenda was to resist sadistic and inhumane Soviet/Russia regime (which has annihilated Ukraine’s Intellectuals, academics, and implemented forced famine on population).

Statistics:

Exact numbers of civilian victims remain unknown. Various historians estimate the number at between 35,000 and 60,000 in Volhyn alone, while estimates of all Polish victims of ethnic cleansing in Ukraine run as high as 100,000 or even 500,000.

Retaliation by Polish Home Army forces resulted in the deaths of 10-60,000 Ukrainian civilians in the region; the exact number is not documented.

The numbers cited possibly include victims of German Schutzmannschaft and Soviet partisans, who also took part in the ethnic cleansing.
The Polish Institute of National Remembrance, which is conducting an extensive investigation of them, has so far collected over 10,000 pages of documents and protocols.


It is claimed that in February 1944 local elements of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army began attacking the Polish minority population, killing many in an effort to drive the Poles out of Volhyn. These actions were conducted by many units and seemed well-coordinated. A delegate of the Polish government-in-exile, together with a group of representatives from the Polish Home Army, attempted to negotiate with UPA leaders, but soon he was found murdered (on July 8, 1943). Within three days, on July 11, a round of massacres began, with many reports of UPA units marching from village to village, killing Polish civilians. The massacres lasted 5 days, until July 16. It is also asserted that the UPA continued the ethnic cleansing, particularly in rural areas, until most Poles had been deported, killed or expelled. After 1944, the scale of such actions was limited.

German army and police forces largely ignored the ethnic conflicts, though there are reports of Germans supplying weapons to both Ukrainians and Poles. These reports are not based on reliable evidence, however. Special German units formed from collaborationist Ukrainian or Polish police were also involved, and some of their crimes have been attributed to either the Polish Home Army or the Ukrainian UPA.

It has been questioned whether these actions were ordered by UPA authorities or resulted from independent decisions by local commanders. No evidence of such UPA orders has been found. Documents discovered by Polish historians have been shown to be fabrications Citation needed. Recently, however, documents found in KGB archives by the rector of the Ukrainian University in Moscow show that the NKVD was also actively involved in the massacres, sending specially trained troops into the area to discredit the UPA.

The Soviet and Nazi invasions of prewar eastern Poland, the UPA massacres of Poles, and postwar Soviet expulsions all contributed to the virtual elimination of a Polish presence in the region.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_o ... n_Volhynia

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#83

Post by Manweru » 15 Dec 2005, 19:36

Georgien wrote:Manweru

That photo is very popular one. Unfortunately, its a black mark on UPA movement. I did little research on that photo a while ago. Most of the sources (non Polish ones) point to the UPA. However, nowhere it is indicated that Stepan Bendera had anything to do with the massacres of Polish. His main agenda was to resist sadistic and inhumane Soviet/Russia regime (which has annihilated Ukraine’s Intellectuals, academics, and implemented forced famine on population).
I think that it's hard to say what is Bandera's level of responsibility for the mass murders- he was in German prison from 1941 and his possible responsiblity and influence on these events would be the his participation in the shaping of the Ukrainian organisations between his arrest. (his responsibility could consist of mounting rabid fascists in places of power,who later did the atrocities)

About UPA itself however, many Ukrainians claimed that UPA's goal was "fighting for independent Ukraine" or "resisting Soviet Union", which is partly correct, but which ultimatively could be called a lie or at least a manipulation.
To a large extent, UPA was in reality a fascist organisation, "fascist" not in terms of supporting Hitler, but in terms of having similiar views (and hate) toward other nations as Nazis had.

Today Nazi apologists might try to claim that Hitler and Nazis were simply "defending Germany" or "fighting for Germany's rightfull place in Europe", but it's not entire truth - the Nazis conducted many hate-inspired atrocities without much much practical sense or any sane reason.

Similiarly, UPA apologists claim that UPA tried only to "fight for Ukraine", but that description of it's goals does not describe the sheer amount of Nazi-like hate and beliefs in that organisation. Like the Nazis, UPA commited terrible hate-inspired,senseless atrocities despite the fact that they were not beneficial for the fullfilement of it's official goals. (just like many Nazi attrocities where in fact counter-productive to fullfilement of Nazi's official goals)

Here it must be said that in many, or even most cases, UPA did not simply murder it's victims in some efficient way like Nazis often did, UPA did torture and mutilate it's victims to give them painfull death, it did also often desecrate the bodies of it's victims - the well-known photo with the Polish children tied up to the tree is a example.

Investigations and research of the subject led to a list of 136 known methods of torture/murder used by UPA,including things like cutting off the breasts of women, piercing the stomachs of pregnant women, cutting the stomach and dragging the entrails outside, crusification with nails,burning alive,impaling of children on wooden stakes,face disfiguration like cutting off nose or lips, or cutting the body in half with a saw.

BTW, some less popular photos about UPA's deeds:

http://genocide007.webpark.pl/1024x768/rys9b.JPG
http://genocide007.webpark.pl/1024x768/rys8b.JPG
http://genocide007.webpark.pl/1024x768/rys5b.JPG
http://genocide007.webpark.pl/1024x768/rys6b.JPG
http://genocide007.webpark.pl/1024x768/rys2b.JPG



M.

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Benoit Douville
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#84

Post by Benoit Douville » 15 Dec 2005, 21:25

For some of you who want to learn more about the Volhynia genocide:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... t=volhynia

Regards

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#85

Post by Askold » 15 Dec 2005, 22:23

Benoite:

What does Volynian genoside has to do with this topic? It should be discussed in the Genoside section.

Again, I would like ask the administrator to intervene. The subject of this topic is UPA-collaboration with Germans and not Ukrainian-Polish relations. So far I haven't heard a SINGLE proof of UPA-German collaboration. Can we keep the topic focused on this subject and nothing else?

Manweru:

1. The photo that you like posting so much was never proven to be UPA related. I raised this question on the Genoside forum and never got positive reply that would confirm the fact this is actuall deeds of UPA.

2. Before crying about ethnic clensing in Volyn, please mention the discrimination of Ukrainian population, forcefull colonisation of Volyn by Poles and pacification actions taken against Ukrainians in the interwar years.

Cheers

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Georgien
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#86

Post by Georgien » 15 Dec 2005, 23:04

A German document of November 25, 1941 (Nuremberg Trial O14-USSR) ordered:

"It has been ascertained that the Bandera Movement is preparing a revolt in the Reichskommissariat which has as its ultimate aim the establishment of an independent Ukraine. All functionaries of the Bandera Movement must be arrested at once and, after thorough interrogration, are to be liquidated..."

Source: Andrew Gregorovich, World War II in Ukraine, 1995

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#87

Post by Georgien » 15 Dec 2005, 23:09

Small Pamphlet Printed by Ukrainian UPA, Kyiv, Ukraine, Sept, 1944 (May also be an earlier version)

Source: http://www.artukraine.com/upa/upa01.htm


"Death To Hitler-Stalin Occupants"


"The Ukrainian Insurgent Army is fighting for the Ukrainian Independent State and for enabling every nation to live a free life in its own independent state. The estruction of national enslavement and exploitation of one nation by another, the system of free nations in their own independent states is the only order that provides a just solution of the national and social issue in the whole world.


UPA is struggling against imperialists and empires because the dominating nation in them enslaves the other nations both culturally and politically while exploiting them economically. That is why UPA is fighting against the USSR and the German "New Europe."


With all its resoluteness the UPA is fighting against internationalistic and Fascist--National--Socialist programs and political concepts, since they are the weapons of the aggressive policy of imperialists. That is why we are against Russian Communist--Bolshevism and German National--Socialism.
UPA is against one nation "fulfillment of its imperialistic goals "liberating", "taking under protection" other nations, since behind these sly words the disgusting meaning is hidden---enslavement, violence, robbery. That is why UPA will keep on fighting against Russian---Bolshevist and German aggressors until Ukraine is cleaned up of all the "protectors" and "liberators", and Ukrainian Independent State is achieved, in which a farmer, a worker, and an intellectual will be able to live and develop freely, prosperously and in a civilized manner.



Page One UPA is fighting for the complete liberation of the Ukrainian people from Russian--Bolshevist and German yoke, for creation of Ukrainian Independent State free from the interference of capitalist, and Bolshevik commissars, NKVDsts (KGBsts), and party parasites.

In the Ukrainian State it will be the highest priority of the nation to follow the interests of the people. Not having any aggressive goals, enslaved countries and subjected nations, the natural inclination of Ukrainian nation will be not to waste time, energy and resources on creating the machine of exploitation and enslavement. Ukrainian people power will direct all economical resources and all human energy on building the state order, just social system, creating the country's economy, increasing the cultural standard of the people.


UPA is fighting for the complete liberation of the Ukrainian people from Russian--Bolshevist and German yoke, for creation of Ukrainian Independent State free from the interference of capitalist, and Bolshevik commissars, NKVDsts (KGBsts), and party parasites.

In the Ukrainian State it will be the highest priority of the nation to follow the interests of the people. Not having any aggressive goals, enslaved countries and subjected nations, the natural inclination of Ukrainian nation will be not to waste time, energy and resources on creating the machine of exploitation and enslavement. Ukrainian people power will direct all economical resources and all human energy on building the state order, just social system, creating the country's economy, increasing the cultural standard of the people.

In the ranks of UPA there are Ukrainian farmers, workers, and intellectuals fighting against enslavers and for the Ukrainian Independent State, for national and social liberation, for a new state order and social system:


1. a. For destruction of Bolshevik and German exploitation--serfdom system of agriculture. Proceeding from the fact that land is the property of the people, Ukrainian State power will not compel farmers to be the sole form of using land. That is why Ukrainian State will allow both personal and collective land ownership depending upon farmers decision.

b. For a cost free transfer of all land of the Western Regions of Ukraine and church land.

2. a. For making large-scale industries a national-state property, and small-scale industries a cooperative-public property.

b. For worker's participation in managing factories, for professional principles of management instead of the party-commissar ones.

Page Two

3. a. For an eight hours working day. Overtime work cannot be obligatory as well as work itself. Overtime work is paid for extra.

b. For just wages, for worker's participation in an enterprises profits. A worker will receive such a salary that is necessary for satisfying both material and spiritual needs for the whole family. After the annual balance is totaled each worker will receive a dividend (for cooperative enterprises) or a bonus (for National-State enterprises).

c. For the right of free labor, free occupational choice, free choice of place of work

d. For freedom of trade unions. For destruction of Stakhanovske movement, socialist competition, increase in daily work quotas and other means of workers exploitation.

4. For a free cottage industry, for a voluntary uniting of artisans into cooperatives associations, for the right of an artisan to drop out of the association, work individually and manage his earnings independently.

5. For a national-state organization of a large-scale trade, a public-cooperative small-scale trade, a private small-scale trade and free markets (bazaars).

6. For a complete equality of a man and a woman in every public right and duty, free access of a woman to all schools and occupations, for a priority-right of a woman for physically easy labor, so that she won't look for earnings at mines, pits and other heavy industries, thus exerting herself to the utmost. For a state protection of motherhood. A father of the family will receive in addition to his wage, additional resources on supporting his wife and the minors. Only under these conditions a woman will be able to perform her important, honorable and responsible duty of a mother and an educator of younger generations.

7. a. For an obligatory secondary education. For increasing cultural and educational standard of the people by means of expanding the network of schools, publishing houses, libraries, museums, cinemas, theaters, etc.

b. For expansion of the network of higher educational institutions and special technical schools, the systematic increase in the number of highly qualified professionals in all spheres of life.

c. For free access of youth to all higher institutes of learning, for providing them with scholarships, boarding, dormitories and textbooks.

d. For thorough development of a younger generation moral, mental and physical potential. For a free access to all scientific and cultural achievements of mankind.

8. For the respect of the intelligentsia accomplishments. For providing such moral background of the work, so that an intellectual would feel secure about tomorrow and about the fate of his family, and thus be able to devote the whole self to his cultural-creative work, having all the necessary conditions for working on himself constantly enriching his knowledge and increasing his intellectually-cultural level.

9. a. For a full pension support of all workers, including the sickness and disability allowances.

b. For a widespread introduction of health-protection measures for people, for expansion of the network of hospitals, health centers, resorts and spas, for the increase in the number of medical personnel. For the right of working people to use all achievements of modern medicine for free.

c. For a special state program on children and youth for expansion of the network of kindergartens, health centers, resorts and sport clubs. All children and youth must be covered by the social network of protection and education.


10. a. For freedom of print, speech, thought, convictions, religion and world view. Against the official imposition of world views, doctrines and dogmas on the public.

b. For a free recognition and execution of the cults not contradicting the people's moral.

c. For separation of the church from the state.

d. For cultural interrelations with other nations, for the right of the citizens to study, receive medical treatment and explore life and culture of other nations abroad.

11. For the right of national minorities to develop their own, by form and content, national culture.

12. For the equality of all citizens of Ukraine regardless of nationality, in state, public rights and duties, for equal rights for labor, wages and rest.

Page Three

13. For a free Ukraine in its form and content, culture, for uplifting spirituality, high moral standards, for public solidarity, friendship and discipline."



High Command Of Ukrainian Insurgent Army,
Printing of UPA, Kyiv, September, 1944

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Benoit Douville
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#88

Post by Benoit Douville » 16 Dec 2005, 01:17

Askold,

In previous post, some members were talking about the events in Volhynia so I tought it would interest some members here. I agree, let's get back on the topic in this thread.

Regards

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#89

Post by Manweru » 16 Dec 2005, 01:26

Askold wrote:Benoite:

What does Volynian genoside has to do with this topic? It should be discussed in the Genoside section.

Again, I would like ask the administrator to intervene. The subject of this topic is UPA-collaboration with Germans and not Ukrainian-Polish relations. So far I haven't heard a SINGLE proof of UPA-German collaboration. Can we keep the topic focused on this subject and nothing else?
I think the genocide done by UPA actually is partially on topic. For many people, the Nazis (and/or communists) were the ultimate evil and resisting Nazis was some kind of "crusade against evil" thing,which gives the subject question additional moral meaning for many people.

Information about the genocide is important here because it tells us that the UPA was just as murderous and criminal as Nazis were, and why one could wonder if they collaborated or not, the UPA were in fact largely Nazis themselves,with the only difference of being Ukrainian instead of German and this possibly makes the question irrelevant to many people.
1. The photo that you like posting so much was never proven to be UPA related. I raised this question on the Genoside forum and never got positive reply that would confirm the fact this is actuall deeds of UPA.
It was done in "Village of Łobozowa (powiat of Tarnopol)" and it is UPA-related almost for certain.

Many Poles have been witnesses to UPA barbaric cruelty, and the fact is things like this were indeed done by UPA,not just murder but torture, mutilation and desecration of bodies. I know that many Ukrainian genocide-deniers try to suggest that it was all communist hoax, but these things have been observed not just by the communists, but also by other groups like AK units and local population.

Why would communists use a fake photo with the huge amount of evidence provided by the UPA?
2. Before crying about ethnic clensing in Volyn, please mention the discrimination of Ukrainian population, forcefull colonisation of Volyn by Poles and pacification actions taken against Ukrainians in the interwar years.

Yes, there was discrimination of Ukrainians in Poland, but at the same time Poland was the protector of Ukrainians and they have benefited greatly from Polish protection. At the same time when Polish Ukrainians were "discriminated", the Ukrainians on the other side of the border were literally dying from hunger...in millions.

Ukrainians decided to "thank" Poles for saving the lives of hundreds of thousands (or millions?) of Ukrainians by mass torturing and murdering of Polish civilians.
Nothing what Poland did in the 20s or 30s was close to mass murder - Poles had every technical and military possibility to mass murder Ukrainians in a much more effective way than UPA ever could do with Poles, but did't do it, did't do it when they have the every advantage over Ukrainians.

I'm sorry Askold, but it is clear that they were criminals and I think it is't important if they were or were't Nazi-collaborators, for UPA soldiers themselves were Ukrainian Nazis themselves, with smaller number of victims than the German one, but with even more barbaric cruelty.

As for the precise topic, I think that UPA itself did't collaborate with Germans, but it's political "mother", the OUN did, and a big party of UPA members were former Nazi-collaborators.


M.

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#90

Post by Askold » 16 Dec 2005, 18:52

Manweru:

I think the genocide done by UPA actually is partially on topic. For many people, the Nazis (and/or communists) were the ultimate evil and resisting Nazis was some kind of "crusade against evil" thing,which gives the subject question additional moral meaning for many people.
You realise, that if : A (Nazis as evil) and B (Ukrainians killing Poles), A does not equal to B? Simple logic.

Information about the genocide is important here because it tells us that the UPA was just as murderous and criminal as Nazis were, and why one could wonder if they collaborated or not, the UPA were in fact largely Nazis themselves,with the only difference of being Ukrainian instead of German and this possibly makes the question irrelevant to many people.
- Just because YOU assume UPA to be Nazis, does not make UPA nazis.
It was done in "Village of Łobozowa (powiat of Tarnopol)" and it is UPA-related almost for certain.
- Where can it be proved regarding the caption on the photo? I'll repeat what I wrote some time ago in the Genoside section:

1. Photo first appeared not during the war but around 60's - when UPA bashing campaign started
2. Back then (in earlier publications) the photo did not have any captions.
3. Knowing how falsified were the communist publications - one should accept the possibility of photo not relating to UPA but being used to discredit the Ukrainian independece movement.

Many Poles have been witnesses to UPA barbaric cruelty, and the fact is things like this were indeed done by UPA,not just murder but torture, mutilation and desecration of bodies. I know that many Ukrainian genocide-deniers try to suggest that it was all communist hoax, but these things have been observed not just by the communists, but also by other groups like AK units and local population.
- Am no denying the fact of crimes against Polish colonists in Volyn'. However same crimes were made against Ukrainian peasants by Polish nationalists even earlier, so I don't understand why you keep bitching about it.

Why would communists use a fake photo with the huge amount of evidence provided by the UPA?
- Because it is a gruessome photo and one picture speaks of thousand words ;)

Yes, there was discrimination of Ukrainians in Poland, but at the same time Poland was the protector of Ukrainians and they have benefited greatly from Polish protection.

Can you tell me how Poland was protector of Ukrainians? Ukrainians and Germans in interwar Polish republic were sujbect to outmost discrimination. To prevent the growth of Ukrainian culture, the Poles conducted so called "Pacification" of Ukrainin willages in the 30's. The army would surround Ukrainian willages, burn down the libraries and churches and execute the prominent leaders. Nice protection eh?


Ukrainians decided to "thank" Poles for saving the lives of hundreds of thousands (or millions?) of Ukrainians by mass torturing and murdering of Polish civilians.
Nothing what Poland did in the 20s or 30s was close to mass murder - Poles had every technical and military possibility to mass murder Ukrainians in a much more effective way than UPA ever could do with Poles, but did't do it, did't do it when they have the every advantage over Ukrainians.
- Am not quite sure what you are trying to say here. Are you stating that Ukrainians should be thankfull to Poland for being a lesser evil?

I'm sorry Askold, but it is clear that they were criminals and I think it is't important if they were or were't Nazi-collaborators,
f


- Ofcourse its important, because UPA-German relations is the original subject of this topic. But you had to bud in and start this loooong pointless debate on "who killed who".

As for the precise topic, I think that UPA itself did't collaborate with Germans

- Well, am glad that after few wasted pages of nonsence, you manged to squize that out.

Cheers

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