Askold wrote:Manweru:
2. Only some of them were settlers- some were Poles living there for hundreds of years.
- You make it sound like only a handfull of Poles settled while in fact this was a mass movement. However, perhaps you're right and am wrong. Can you please provide me with stats for Polish population in 1918 and 1938 Volyn'?
No, I can't. But it's obvious that some Poles must've lived there since the times of Pol-Lith Commonwealth.
- So if you agree that same reasoning that is applied to UPA can be applied to AK, than its a very weak reasoning. By this reasoning half of the world armies can be labled as Nazi armies.
Most armies of the world did not participate in mass murder of civilians with no real provocation like UPA did.
1)UPA did the mass murder in a organised,planned, pre-meditated way, just like the Nazis did to Jews.
2)Like the Nazis deeds, the UPAs mass murder was done out of irrational pathological hate and chauvinism.
- So was it pre-planned or irrational? Also I am wondering, if you claim that UPA used axes and tortured and mutilated and ate babies all in blind hate, then how can they commit a mass murder?
There is no contradiction between planned murder and irrationality. Both the mass murder of Poles by UPA and Holocaust are good examples. Was it rational for the Nazis (or anybody else) to murder Jews just for being Jews? No. And yet they did
in a pre-planned fashion.
An now for practical reasoning: Have you tried killing/mutilating people with the axe? (who needs bullets anyways?) It would take you weeks to get trough just one willage. If you claim it was a genoside that killed "tens thousands of people" - then either UPA had few million axes and torture chambers at hand or had help from Chrismass elves.
I think you underestimate the effect of blade upon flesh.
- So, you claim:
1. All AK actions started after UPA Volyn' masacre
2. All AK actions were purely for revenge.
I claim that:
1. All AK actions of mass murder started after UPA Volyn' masacre
2. All AK actions of mass murder were purely for direct revenge.
Once again, the photo:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Wolyn1943.jpg
In every country in the world, be it Poland, Ukraine or any other country, many people would seek revenge if something like that would be done to their family members,friends or neighbours, and it does't mean their Nazis.
- Once again, why are you repeating yourself? This photo was never proven to be from UPA actions. In fact, I don't even know what makes these poor children Polish to begin with.
Your "argument" reminds me of people who deny Holocaust by claiming it is all forgery.
Do you have any kind of reference to it?
- Yes, give me few days to look for it. I was reading some memuars, where the person states AK murders way before Volyn.
Did the memoirs mention if AK just went on random rampage, or perhaps was the "murdered" person a Nazi collaborator or nationalistic terrorist?
- I have no problems with AK murdering other Poles, but I don't see why AK should concern itself with Ukrainian individuals. Also, in this post you clearly contradict your earlier statement where you said AK actions were only a revenge for Volyn.
There is no contradiction because previously I meant mass murder and killing of innocent civilians.
AK, being the army of the legal Polish goverment-in-exile, had full legal rights to apply war-time justice to Nazi collaborators and terrorism promoters on the whole territory of pre-1939 Polish state and it did utilise this right to execute many people, for example Nazi collaborators of different nationalities- I suspect the families of executed Ukrainian collaborators did't accept that they were executed for being collaborators, and presented a false view that they were killed for being Ukrainians.
2. The "prominent Ukrainians" were also probably rabid anti-Polish Nazis like OUN/UPA members who commited the mass murders later. One can hardly blame AK for eliminating dangerous individuals of genocidal beliefs and intent.
- So AK knew they would become mass murderers later! Probaly owned a crystal ball or something. What you wrote is poor exuses for pre-planned attacks on Ukrainian civilians. Prominent members included people like proffessors, doctors and librarians. The truth is, AK murdered Ukrainian nationals, for the only reason that they were
self-conscious Ukrainians and not Rusyns (like the Poles tried to make them).
Actually, I suspect that the UPA members who later commited the mass murder of Polish civilians, did't develop rabid genocidal Nazi beliefs in one day just before they commited genocide- they must've been hate-filled much earlier, they have been already doing terrorist attacks before the war - AK did't know that they would become mass murderers later, but have a right to kill people who commited or prepared terrorist acts against AK and Poland- in that aspect, these people were combatants, not civilians.
Generally, I suspect that AK eliminated some rabid OUN Nazis and Nazi collaborators, but the Ukrainian side tried to make some kind of innocent martyrs out of these men.
- Assuming for a second that this was true, now you admit that it was AK who started the murder of civilians? Also, you realise that OUN was not collaborating with Germans after 1941. The reality is, that AK killed not alleged OUN-Nazi collaborators, but innocent civilians.
1. Some Ukrainians collaborated with Germans during the entire war, we cannot narrow it down to just OUN. Killing a Ukrainian Nazi collaborator is not killing a innocent civilian, and is hardly murder.
2. OUN was a fascist and terrorist organisation- effectively, it's members were not "innocent civilians", but members of terrorist organisation. "Civilians" can be truly applied only to those Poles and Ukrainians who did not belong to OUN,UPA or AK.
- So after all this, do you deny Ukrainians right for self defence from Polish persecution?
I don't deny Ukrainian right for self-defense. The problem is, mass murdering civilians is not self-defence.
Your argumentation here is classical example of Nazi apology: the Nazi apologist considers the act of mass murder "self-defense"- for example German Nazis considered the Holocaust a "self defense" against Jews and many Ukrainians delude themselves by trying to 'prove' that mass murder of civilians by UPA was somehow "self-defence".
Many anti-Polish actions of UPA were self-defense, for example fighting against armed Polish partisants (combatants) from AK- but murder of women and children was't!
- Can you please prove me that Volyn was not densly populated and Poland did not take away land from Ukrainains? ( following your statement, I must assume the land was just lying around freely and nobody but Polish colonists wanted it?)
Even today, Ukraine is much less densly populated than Poland and many other countries and it has lots of excess land.
- So if you agree that Poles engated in genoside as well, then what was the purpose of your postes? Trying to prove how horrible the Ukrainians were considering you are no better (if not worse) yourself? Pathetic.
Purpose of my posts: to inform and remind people that UPA was not just "a partisan organisation" but effectively a genocidal Nazi organisation similiar to the organisations of German Nazis.
Yes, but hardly major ones. Even prominent OUN activists like Bandera or Lebed were't murdered but simply put to prison which they survived, so where was the great evil?
- Is there a difference betwen major genoside and not a major one? So little genosides can get by becuse they small and cute? Fact is, Interwar Poland engaged in Pacification action, which was a war crime. If anyone should seek revenge for decades of persecution, than it would be UPA.
The persecution was not genocide, was not mass murder. The fate of prominent Ukrainian nationalist activists like Bandera or Lebed who were not murdered by only put to prison and survive, tells us two things:
1)The alleged "murders of Ukrainians" were unlikely- why would Poles kill other Ukrainians, but let Bandera and Lebed live?
Probably the "murders" were cases of armed resistance to arrest resulting in death, only later to be slanderously described by Ukrainian nationalists circles (who were no more honest than their German ideological counterparts) as "brutal murder of innocent Ukrainians".
2)Something is awfully wrong the Ukrainian nationalist image of pre-war Poland. How much was Poland brutal and evil, if the punishement for prominent Ukrainian nationalsts like Lebed or Bandera was simply jail? Especially in the case of Bandera who was a terrorist who had taken part of Polish minister - and yet, he was not executed, only put to jail. Do you really believe that if Bandera and Lebed were treated like that, than the fate of other Ukrainians was as terrible as Ukrainian nationalists claim?
- But all Soviet Ukraine was under Bolshevic rule. Soviet Union didn't involved in international scandal in any case, because nobody cared for Ukrainians in the 30's.
1)Doing the Great Famine close to borders of other countries carried bigger risk.
2) Actually, some countries did send observers to check the famine rumors- but Soviet cheated the observers.
Irrational justification of war criminals. Could you please explain how the Polish politics have actually *FORCED* UPA to do the torture and mass murders?
- Only if you can prove HOW can you mass murder people trough torture. Do I have to look up medieval torture books and tell you how long it takes to torture single person? Your story of torture is so-blown up you don't even realise that the quickets way to murder someone in 20th C. would be not with torture but with a bullet to a head. (and it would still be a waste of a bullet if this was done on mass scale).
1. It is fully possible to inflict lots of suffering in short amount of time- most of UPA's tortures consisted of fast mutilation using bladed tools like axes and knives. Also, one can quickly cause lethal wounds which invariably kill the victim over longer period of time with lots of suffering and horror. (example: stomach wounds)
2. Even if you disbelieve torture, then please explain how the Polish politics have *FORCED* UPA to mass murder civilians.
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Do you consider torture, mutilation and murder of pregnant women and children to be justified because....
- What else are you going to immagine? Perhaps UPA gave every Pole a Spanish boot and impaled them too?
Why do you smile when discussing things like mutilation and murder of the pregnant women and children?
The people who think that free speech limitation, church demolishion or political activist arrest are sufficient justification of ethnic-based mass murder of civilians, including children and pregnant women, are called "Nazis".
- What gave Poland the right to act in murder, persecution and church demolition in the first place? I am not convinced by your arguments of mass murder/torture, but if any killings of Poles happend, Poland in its shouvenism brought it up upon itself.
1. Yes, both mass murder and torture happened [combined].
2. How did Poland *FORCE* UPA to do mass murder/torture of civilians? Did it actually force them to do it?
3. Which of Poland's actions exactly do you consider a sufficient reason to murder children or pregnant women?
This discussion is shocking to me- it reminds me of a usenet discussion I had long ago with a German neo-nazi, who explained to me how Germany was drawn into war and how the Jews murdered Germans, etc etc. I guess I will never understand, how neo-nazis, German or Ukrainian, can delude themselves into thinking that murdering civilians, women and children can be justified with their irrelevant reasons.
Unlike that what you might hear from Ukrainian nationalist propaganda, Poland was simply being gentle with Ukrainians, it did't utilise even a fraction of possible force against them.
- So if I understand you correctly, Pacification action was a way of Poland showing how gentle Ukrainians are treated? You poor missunderstanded heros!
Why are you being sarcastic about it? Look closely: I have just shown you that the Ukrainian Neo-Nazi/Nationalist circles lie about Poland- they present image of some terrible opressiveness, while in fact Poland was using only a fraction of it's potential opressive power and it treated even convicted terrorists like Bandera in a civilised way.
I suspect that your sarcasm shown here is simply a proof of being unable to deal with the unconvinient truth- recalling my discussion with the German neo-nazi, I guess this is standart Nazi-sympathizer, genocide-apologist trait.
Again, flawed Nazi-think. "The Poles have to blame only themselves"..."The Jews have to blame only themselves"
What does this remind you of?
- So, you're saying UPA had no better reasons to kill the Poles? Just did it because they had nothing else to do?
If one would seek ANY reason to kill somebody or some ethnic group, then a "reason" would be found for murdering every single man or ethnic group on this planet.
The difference between a Nazi and a normal person is that the Nazi deludes himself and tries to prove that imaginary or irrelevant reasons are perfect justification for genocide.
For a normal person, small opressive things like limitation of free speech or church dismantling are no excuse for murdering women and children, while for a Nazi, it's perfect justification,for a Nazi it's a complete "they made our guys do it".
- I am not denying killing of Poles by UPA, but I deny your appologetic excuses regarding AK and Pacification. It was Poland who initiated the conflict, we just did a beter job at removing the Polish colonists from Volyn, then you trying to curb the Ukrainian nationalism.
1. As for AK, what AK has done was wrong, but that was revenge on the basis of "mass murder for mass murder", not something to be condoned, but something understandable for people who have lost their families. Many if not most people in the world would do the same if their families would get murdered.
2. UPA did murder the Poles with no relevant provocation- for normal people of the world, small opressive things which does not actually cause death, are no reason to murder women and children.
3. As for Pacification, it was not the conflict itself, it was a attempt to actually STOP the unrest and eventual bloodshed. If Poland would treat it as a real conflict with Ukrainians, it would act in a completely different manner.
Yes and no. There was some chauvinism, but most of actual hate erupted due to UPAs actions.
- So points #1-6 are just "some shauvinism"? If you look at them again, you'll see that most Polish attacks on Ukrainians began prior to Volyn.
Yes, it was some chauvinism, but it was no pathological Nazi hate like the German Nazis had for Jews, or Ukrainian Nazis ("Nationalists" euphemically) for Poles.
Quote:
Murderer, haidamak, nationalist, separatist, hooligan, terrorist. .
Which of these phrases do you consider defamatory and untrue to the Ukrainian nationalists in the 20s and 30s?
- If you read my posting correctly these terms were applied to ALL Ukrainians.
Sure, because small groups of extremist Ukrainian Nazis created a non-representative image of the whole nation in Polish eyes. The same happened later when Poles thought EVERY Ukrainian is like a Nazi war criminal from UPA.
Of course it was wrong- most Ukrainians were normal people who were free of pathological Nazi hate of other nationalities.
Still, one cannot really blame the Poles for mistaking the image created by the active Nazi minority for the full picture of Ukrainians.
But they're only crime was that they refused to be polonized and wanted to live in free Ukraine.
What about illegal gathering of arms, assaults and assasination of officials and preaching (Nazi) hate propaganda?
- Manweru, you failed to convince me how UPA were evil torturers of innocent Polish colonists.
About the UPA torture, I think the problem is that you WANT to disbelieve it. The views presented by you in this thread are classical Nazi apologist beliefs and it goes the same for your emotionally-driven denial of some facts about UPA.
From psychological point of view, you cannot and perhaps even should not admit to yourself that UPA was a genocidal Nazi organisation and that you are in fact a Nazi sympathizer, because that would probably mean breaking of your core ideological/political beliefs and the feeling of identification with a cause you FEEL to be right.
This is the case with all Nazi sympathizers- it's not that they did not get enough proof about the guilt of their 'idols', it's simply that they are too much attached emotionally to them to even consider aproaching the matter in a honest manner.
You will probably never believe the truth, just as some Germans who to emotionally attached to German Nazi vision of history, who will never believe that Holocaust was evil and that the Nazis were simply filled with pathological irrational hate for other people.
You also failed to convice me why Ukrainians should quietly suffered all the abuses from the Polish government.
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Askold, I never said they should suffer the abuse quietly. But they should stick to fighting Polish officials and soldiers, not murdering women and children.
M.
