This is an apolitical forum for discussions on the Axis nations, as well as the First and Second World Wars in general hosted by Marcus Wendel's Axis History Factbook in cooperation with Michael Miller's Axis Biographical Research and Christoph Awender's WW2 day by day.







valentine III wrote:The Axis wireless communique on the day's fighting referred to the "... annihilation of the British 22nd Armoured Brigade." Momentarily disorganised perhaps, but for many months to come the Brigade was to give such an account of itself that this lie was well and truly nailed. Certainly the Commanders of 15th and 21st Panzer Divisions were well aware of its continued existence."



Urmel wrote:Total losses at Bir el Gubi therefore 42 tanks. Which is a very pleasing number, and must be right, since 42 is the answer to the question about life, the universe, and all the rest.

Urmel wrote:valentine III wrote:The Axis wireless communique on the day's fighting referred to the "... annihilation of the British 22nd Armoured Brigade." Momentarily disorganised perhaps, but for many months to come the Brigade was to give such an account of itself that this lie was well and truly nailed. Certainly the Commanders of 15th and 21st Panzer Divisions were well aware of its continued existence."
BS. By the end of November 22 Armoured Brigade could field the equivalent of a Squadron of tanks. It was well and truly annihilated at Bir el Gobi and Sidi Rezegh.

Urmel wrote:So what are the conclusions of all this:
Tactical
a) The Italians had a well-prepared and well camouflaged position, which they defended very well and held.
b) The British were pretty hapless, insisting on attacking it when they should have broken off.
c) The Italian tank losses were on a scale similar to those of the British, even if the Italian estimate is accepted as correct, and overall Italian losses were probably higher.
The Italians did well, but I fail to see where the big victory is. It is basically a story of inept attack on a strong position.
As for how many British tanks were lost, anything between 10 and 82, take your pick. But let's not forget that Ariete also suffered heavily, losing completely 20+% of its strength in medium tanks, and another 10% temporarily. Not exactly something it could easily afford, and the point made by Agar-Hamilton & Turner, namely that it did not really get back into battle for the rest of the operation, appears a fair one.

dor1941 wrote:However, the bulk of the brigade's personnel were still warm, vertical and breathing, and the crippling losses of tanks and equipment could be at least partially made good by repaired tanks and the substantial reserve of some 200 tanks with which Eighth Army started the offensive on Nov 18th (initially with five armoured brigades and approximatedly 730 gun-armed tanks).

dor1941 wrote:dor1941 wrote:However, the bulk of the brigade's personnel were still warm, vertical and breathing, and the crippling losses of tanks and equipment could be at least partially made good by repaired tanks and the substantial reserve of some 200 tanks with which Eighth Army started the offensive on Nov 18th (initially with five armoured brigades and approximatedly 730 gun-armed tanks).
Incidentally, it was always my impression that the Germans and Italians in Operation Crusader had zero tank reserves.
David R

dor1941 wrote:Urmel wrote:Total losses at Bir el Gubi therefore 42 tanks. Which is a very pleasing number, and must be right, since 42 is the answer to the question about life, the universe, and all the rest.
Please continue...I confess I am in complete ignorance about this apparent philosophical issue![]()
David R

dor1941 wrote:Urmel wrote:valentine III wrote:The Axis wireless communique on the day's fighting referred to the "... annihilation of the British 22nd Armoured Brigade." Momentarily disorganised perhaps, but for many months to come the Brigade was to give such an account of itself that this lie was well and truly nailed. Certainly the Commanders of 15th and 21st Panzer Divisions were well aware of its continued existence."
BS. By the end of November 22 Armoured Brigade could field the equivalent of a Squadron of tanks. It was well and truly annihilated at Bir el Gobi and Sidi Rezegh.
I think "annihilated" might be too strong a word to apply to the brigade after those two actions.


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