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These Italian Tank Battles....

Discussions on all aspects of Italy under Fascism from the March on Rome to the end of the war.

Re: These Italian Tank Battles....

Postby Urmel on 15 Jun 2012 13:39

4 CLY diary is available. They claimed about 20 Italian tanks (including at least 5 light tanks), and reported 8 tanks lost. They started on 18 Nov. with 48 tanks, and 'a few' dropped out during the approach march. They report another 5 casualties on 21 November (of which 3 recovered), and a tank state of 25 tanks available in the regiment on the evening of the day. This would indicate 10 tanks had become mechanical casualties, while 13 tanks had become combat casualties.

Total losses at Bir el Gubi therefore 42 tanks. Which is a very pleasing number, and must be right, since 42 is the answer to the question about life, the universe, and all the rest.
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Re: These Italian Tank Battles....

Postby valentine III on 15 Jun 2012 13:48

Paul Kenny published this in another part of these forum.


This is from 'Carpiquet Bound' a privately published account of 4th CLY in WW2.

"Bir el Gubi
---------------

The 22nd Armoured Brigade had moved up by train to the open desert area south of Mersa Matruh at the end of October 1941 where 'shakedown' exercises continued until 16th November when Brigadier Scott-Cockbum summoned his Commanding Officers to receive orders for the advance into Libya on 18th November. The "Dogs of War" were about to be unleashed.
On the night of 17th/18th as a kind of Wagnerian prelude, a storm of tropical proportions broke at the precise moment these orders were being relayed to Troop Leaders by their respective Squadron Leaders. However, by 0900 hrs on 18th November when the advance began the weather had cleared.
The Brigade advanced through the previously created gaps in the frontier wire, 2nd RGH in the centre with 4th CLVto the left and 3rd CLY to the right. By the end of the day they had reached a position some 20 miles south-east of Bir el Gubi. The next morning 19th November, 4th CLY had 'A' Squadron in the lead with 'B' Squadron and 'C' Squadron echeloned back to left and right respectively. On 'C' Squadron's right was 'G' Squadron of 2nd RGH. The approach march of someeighty miles had taken its toll of the Regiment's Crusaders, due in part to inherent weaknesses in their design, but also to the inexcusable failure of the manufacturers to make various essential modifications when asked for well before we left England. So no Squadron was at full strength at this crucial moment - 'C' Squadron for example went into battle with only eleven tanks.
It was known that Bir el Gubi was an enemy strong point and that the Italian Ariete Division was in the vicinity. Wisdom passed down to us from Brigade Intelligence was that the Italian M13 tank would present us with no difficulties, nor would the German Mk.11 and 111 tanks. As for the German MkJV there were only twenty of those in North Africa'. We almost felt sorry for the enemy, but the rude awakening was not far off. Reconnaissance had failed to spot that the concentration of 'soft' vehicles that could be seen on the horizon were in fact well dug in and disguised anti-tank defences plus some similarly entrenched M.13 tanks.

The dashing cavalry type charge with which the 4th CLY went into battle may have seemed heroic when read about in the newspapers, but with historical hindsight it can be seen to have been ill-advised. Our tanks were soon overrunning the Italian trenches whose occupants were surrendering in droves, but we had no supporting infantry to take them over so they took up their weapons again as soon as we had passed through. Several 'C' Squadron 4th CLY and 'G' Squadron2nd RGH tanks were knocked out in that way. The Gubi defences had been well prepared in advance right down to the apparently haphazard groups of empty oil drums which in fact were range markers at 500 metres, 1000 metres etc. 'C' Squadron lost three Troop Leaders that day. The tanks of Lt.P.G.C.Somerville and Count John de Bendem were knocked out almost on top of Italian gun emplacements. Lt.J.S.Hankey and his operator Tpr.N.J.Davison were killed by anti-tank fire after their tank had been immobilised in a collision with a 2nd RGH tank. Lt.Hankey's troop sergeant Sgt.D.Cardy was also killed as was Tpr.W.Appleyard who was driving Sgt.Tony Reeves's tank.
Only three of the eleven 'C' Squadron tanks that went into action were able to respond to then Colonel's recall message late in the afternoon. 'C' Squadron had lost five complete tank crews one Officer, one Sergeant and two Troopers killed and the following taken prisoner :-
Lt.Count John de Bendern.Lt.P.G.C.Somerville, Sgt.A.Reeves, Sgt.P.R.Shurmur,Cpl.W.E.Cooper
Cpl.P. J.Turner, Cpl.Franklin, L/Cpl.L.B.Ephgrave, L/CpI.E.Evans, Tpr.L.Davis Tpr R D Elliott'
Tpr.R.P.Frith, Tpr.R.F.H.Cawston, Tpr.G.Clarke, Tpr.N.F.Druce, Tpr.L.V.Colombe and
Tpr.R.O.Gulliver.


The Brigade's tank losses were estimated as forty, twenty of which belonged to 2nd RGH. The Regiment's tank losses would have been even more serious had it not been for the initiative of Sgt.M. Seaward of 'B' Squadron in towing several 'A' and 'B' Squadron tanks to safety when they ran out of petrol. For this prompt and gallant action he was subsequently awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal.
Before the order to withdraw had been given a group of Italian M.ISs came within range of 4th C.L. Y. Adjutant's tank whose gunner set one of them on fire and stopped two others before the rest hurriedly returned whence they came.
That first Regimental leaguer in action was a very anxious time for the Colonel because only seven tanks had rallied within half an hour of the recall. But eventually, in ones and twos tanks began to arrive and it was well into the evening before all the survivors of the action had
returned to the fold. This situation gave rise to an amusing incident involving Major George Kidston, 4th C.L. Y. second in command who in trying to rally the stragglers, said over the air "On the count of three I will fire a RED Very light" - and promptly fired a GREEN one!
The Axis wireless communique on the day's fighting referred to the "... annihilation of the British 22nd Armoured Brigade." Momentarily disorganised perhaps, but for many months to come the Brigade was to give such an account of itself that this lie was well and truly nailed. Certainly the Commanders of 15th and 21st Panzer Divisions were well aware of its continued existence."

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Re: These Italian Tank Battles....

Postby valentine III on 15 Jun 2012 13:48

Is available somwhere on the web?

Thanks

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Re: These Italian Tank Battles....

Postby Urmel on 15 Jun 2012 15:13

No, in Kew.
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Re: These Italian Tank Battles....

Postby Urmel on 15 Jun 2012 15:16

valentine III wrote:The Axis wireless communique on the day's fighting referred to the "... annihilation of the British 22nd Armoured Brigade." Momentarily disorganised perhaps, but for many months to come the Brigade was to give such an account of itself that this lie was well and truly nailed. Certainly the Commanders of 15th and 21st Panzer Divisions were well aware of its continued existence."



BS. By the end of November 22 Armoured Brigade could field the equivalent of a Squadron of tanks. It was well and truly annihilated at Bir el Gobi and Sidi Rezegh.
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Re: These Italian Tank Battles....

Postby valentine III on 19 Jun 2012 09:10

Sorry, yes, I copied the message without reviewing it fully.

The 22nd armoured brigade continued in the fight with ever decreasing numbers and little success and already on the 23rd of November there were just a few tanks left. In a few days the 7th and the 22nd Armoured brigades were destroyed as fighting formations, and 4rd armoured brigade was much reduced... The Italian stand at Bir Gubi had contributed to this defeats and Rommel though they had won the battle and launched its tanks to the "wire", to egypt....

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Re: These Italian Tank Battles....

Postby Urmel on 19 Jun 2012 12:42

I understood that, my comment was not aimed at what you wrote, but rather at 'Carpiquet Bound'. Goes to show the risk in relying on these types of narratives.
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Re: These Italian Tank Battles....

Postby dor1941 on 20 Jun 2012 15:32

Urmel wrote:Total losses at Bir el Gubi therefore 42 tanks. Which is a very pleasing number, and must be right, since 42 is the answer to the question about life, the universe, and all the rest.


Please continue...I confess I am in complete ignorance about this apparent philosophical issue :)

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Re: These Italian Tank Battles....

Postby dor1941 on 20 Jun 2012 15:36

Urmel wrote:
valentine III wrote:The Axis wireless communique on the day's fighting referred to the "... annihilation of the British 22nd Armoured Brigade." Momentarily disorganised perhaps, but for many months to come the Brigade was to give such an account of itself that this lie was well and truly nailed. Certainly the Commanders of 15th and 21st Panzer Divisions were well aware of its continued existence."


BS. By the end of November 22 Armoured Brigade could field the equivalent of a Squadron of tanks. It was well and truly annihilated at Bir el Gobi and Sidi Rezegh.


I think "annihilated" might be too strong a word to apply to the brigade after those two actions.

I would agree that 42 Crusaders lost to Ariete on Nov 19th would be a reasonable number. Agar-Hamilton and Turner also note that 22nd Armd Bde began the contest of Nov 22nd at Sidi Rezegh with 79 tanks (S.A. OH, p. 205) left of its original complement of 158 Crusaders, and had been further reduced to "some 30" (ibid, p. 231) tanks by the start of Nov 23rd-Totensonntag. However, the bulk of the brigade's personnel were still warm, vertical and breathing, and the crippling losses of tanks and equipment could be at least partially made good by repaired tanks and the substantial reserve of some 200 tanks with which Eighth Army started the offensive on Nov 18th (initially with five armoured brigades and approximatedly 730 gun-armed tanks).

In fact, 22nd Armd Bde had been rebuilt to a strength of 42 Crusaders (ibid, p.359) by Nov 27th, when 30th Corps committed it and 4th Armd Bde (itself rebuilt to 77 tanks) to attack 15. Panzer-Division as it was returning to the Tobruk area in a column strung out along the Trig Capuzzo. 22nd Bde engaged and stopped the head of the division, and 4th Armd Bde then struck the flank of the column. This relatively inconclusive action was even seen by the British as a victory of sorts. Though 22nd Armd Bde was eventually amalgamated with the 4th on Nov 30th, it was again reequipped and rebuilt after a short period with many of its original men, and was mauled in its later battles as well..

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Re: These Italian Tank Battles....

Postby dor1941 on 20 Jun 2012 15:50

Regarding Ariete and 22nd Armoured Bde at Bir el Gubi:

Urmel wrote:So what are the conclusions of all this:
Tactical
a) The Italians had a well-prepared and well camouflaged position, which they defended very well and held.
b) The British were pretty hapless, insisting on attacking it when they should have broken off.
c) The Italian tank losses were on a scale similar to those of the British, even if the Italian estimate is accepted as correct, and overall Italian losses were probably higher.
The Italians did well, but I fail to see where the big victory is. It is basically a story of inept attack on a strong position.

I entirely agree with this analysis.

As for how many British tanks were lost, anything between 10 and 82, take your pick. But let's not forget that Ariete also suffered heavily, losing completely 20+% of its strength in medium tanks, and another 10% temporarily. Not exactly something it could easily afford, and the point made by Agar-Hamilton & Turner, namely that it did not really get back into battle for the rest of the operation, appears a fair one.


Also good points, but in fairness to Ariete, it should be mentioned that until Nov 23rd the CAM was not under Rommel's command, and that until that date he could only request that Ariete and Trieste cooperate with the Panzergruppe. Ariete also took part in the attack on 5th S.A. Bde on Totensonntag, made faces against 1st S.A. Bde at Taieb el Esem on Nov 25th (causing Brigadier Pienaar to wet his pants), and overran 21st N.Z. Battalion at Pt. 175 on Nov 29th (admittedly by a fluke). By maintaining its position at Pt. 175, it materially assisted the DAK in boxing up the N.Z. Division and fending off attempts by 30th Corps to give relief to Freyberg. So we should give credit where credit was due.

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Re: These Italian Tank Battles....

Postby dor1941 on 20 Jun 2012 15:59

dor1941 wrote:However, the bulk of the brigade's personnel were still warm, vertical and breathing, and the crippling losses of tanks and equipment could be at least partially made good by repaired tanks and the substantial reserve of some 200 tanks with which Eighth Army started the offensive on Nov 18th (initially with five armoured brigades and approximatedly 730 gun-armed tanks).


Incidentally, it was always my impression that the Germans and Italians in Operation Crusader had zero tank reserves.

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Re: These Italian Tank Battles....

Postby Urmel on 20 Jun 2012 16:51

dor1941 wrote:
dor1941 wrote:However, the bulk of the brigade's personnel were still warm, vertical and breathing, and the crippling losses of tanks and equipment could be at least partially made good by repaired tanks and the substantial reserve of some 200 tanks with which Eighth Army started the offensive on Nov 18th (initially with five armoured brigades and approximatedly 730 gun-armed tanks).


Incidentally, it was always my impression that the Germans and Italians in Operation Crusader had zero tank reserves.

David R


There were some mediums floating about in the Italian rear, see the thread on Ariete tank losses.
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Re: These Italian Tank Battles....

Postby Urmel on 20 Jun 2012 16:53

dor1941 wrote:
Urmel wrote:Total losses at Bir el Gubi therefore 42 tanks. Which is a very pleasing number, and must be right, since 42 is the answer to the question about life, the universe, and all the rest.


Please continue...I confess I am in complete ignorance about this apparent philosophical issue :)

David R


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42_(number)#The_Hitchhiker.27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy
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Re: These Italian Tank Battles....

Postby Urmel on 20 Jun 2012 17:07

dor1941 wrote:
Urmel wrote:
valentine III wrote:The Axis wireless communique on the day's fighting referred to the "... annihilation of the British 22nd Armoured Brigade." Momentarily disorganised perhaps, but for many months to come the Brigade was to give such an account of itself that this lie was well and truly nailed. Certainly the Commanders of 15th and 21st Panzer Divisions were well aware of its continued existence."


BS. By the end of November 22 Armoured Brigade could field the equivalent of a Squadron of tanks. It was well and truly annihilated at Bir el Gobi and Sidi Rezegh.


I think "annihilated" might be too strong a word to apply to the brigade after those two actions.


I think it is quite appropriate, however. I know they rebuilt the brigade, but (i) it did not get back into action for one month (around Christmas) and (ii) when it did it was so inept that the DAK wiped the floor with it at Uadi al Faregh. That one was so bad that the Auk ordered an inquiry into the tank losses, and reported it up to Winston. And after that the Brigade went out of service for another month, then playing a very minor role in the clusterfcuk that was trying to defend against the counteroffensive.

See also http://crusaderproject.wordpress.com/20 ... -armd-bde/ - note that on 30 December the Brigade needed the left-overs of 7 Armoured Brigade to make up a regiment of 33 (sic!) tanks, and by 2 December could field maybe 34 tanks, or about 20% of its initial strength.

On 28 November the Brigade reported 30 tanks ready for action. No report for 27 November, but they report 7 tanks lost, so let's say they had 37 tanks ready on the morning of 27 November. About two squadrons worth, instead of nine, and that was after salvage operations.
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Re: These Italian Tank Battles....

Postby valentine III on 04 Jul 2012 13:36

Urmel wrote:
So what are the conclusions of all this:
Tactical
a) The Italians had a well-prepared and well camouflaged position, which they defended very well and held

I don't agree. Italian sources tell that 8th Bersaglieri regiment was in the process of changing its positions so heavy weapons were not properly emplaced. This explains why when they were attacked by the Crusader's many men surrendered easily and it was only after italian tanks appeared and british tanks abandoned the area that italian infantry AT guns (47/32) fired aganist passing and retreating tanks causing some loses.

About 22nd Brigade. Well it doesn't matter if loses were of 30-40-50 tanks. The point is that it was an unsucsesful operation that weakened the 22nd brigade that was also suffering from reliability problems before the decisive engagement aganist the German armoured divisions. In 4-5 days the 22nd was but a shadow and even during these days its influence in the battle was little.

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