Northern Italian/RSI economy under the Germans

Discussions on all aspects of Italy under Fascism from the March on Rome to the end of the war.
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Poot
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Northern Italian/RSI economy under the Germans

#1

Post by Poot » 27 Nov 2014, 04:12

I'm looking for suggestions for sources on the RSI/Northern Italian economy under German supervision.
It's my understanding that a number of domestic arms factories continued production in the RSI period, some under the 'supervision' of the Germans. I'd like to know just how much control was exerted by Germany, and any particulars of weapons production, such as if the Italians produced any arms for the Germans, or if the production was dedicated to Italian forces alone. Any direction you can provide would be helpful.
Thank you,
Pat
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djehuty
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Re: Northern Italian/RSI economy under the Germans

#2

Post by djehuty » 28 Nov 2014, 12:20



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Poot
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Re: Northern Italian/RSI economy under the Germans

#3

Post by Poot » 28 Nov 2014, 19:08

Djehuty,
Thank you! Yours is a much clearer copy of this document than the one I already have. Any known documents or sources dealing directly with small arms production?
Thanks,
Pat
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ML59
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Re: Northern Italian/RSI economy under the Germans

#4

Post by ML59 » 30 Nov 2014, 14:16

All factories of strategic value were producing directly under German supervision and instructions. The Germans provided raw materials, oil or coal, transportation, electricity and whatever was necessary for the production. Some indigenous weapons or vehicles that were deemed acceptable were kept into production, sometimes with minor modifications requested by the Germans, and directly delivered to the German Armed Forces, mostly for local use. Other factories started production of sub-components for original German designs and delivered them to the Reich. The RSI government has no authority at all about the matter and didn't enjoy any delivery of new armaments or supplies from the factories that was not authorized by the German occupiers.

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Poot
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Re: Northern Italian/RSI economy under the Germans

#5

Post by Poot » 01 Dec 2014, 19:55

ML59,
Thank you. Would you please share the source(s) for the modification to native (Carcanos?) weapons requested by the Germans, and for delivery to German, as opposed to RSI forces? Thank you in advance for your help!
Pat
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ML59
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Re: Northern Italian/RSI economy under the Germans

#6

Post by ML59 » 11 Dec 2014, 00:01

As far as I know, no brand new 7,92x57 caliber M91 rifles were produced for the Germans. They seized several hundred thousands of Carcano rifle and muskets in the original 6,5x52 caliber but used them in the original form until early 1945 when a program was initiated to convert partly the available stock to the standard German rifle ammunition. They were re-bored, the receiver was milled and re-machined to suit to the larger cartridge and the magazine modified to get 5 Mauser full cartridges instead of the original 6. About 15.000 pcs were not modified in the magazine, blocked by a wooden choke, and distributed to local militia and rural police in Sud Tirol (after 1945 again part of Italy) as single shot weapons.
The Carcano rifles, in original caliber or German 7,92x57 caliber, were mostly distributed to second line troops, local police, auxiliary forces (included OT, DR and others) axis militias or Volksturm. Even if the original ammunition somewhat lacked hitting power (especially poor was the invalidating capacity) the rifle itself was a good, precise and reliable weapon, perfectly suited for second line use. On the contrary, the Italian machine guns, light and medium types, were generally of very poor design, unreliable, with very low practical rate of fire due to antiquated feeding systems with cartridges trays and suffering the same hitting power problems of the Carcano rifles. The only useful Italian machine gun was the heavy type Breda M37 firing a 8mm projectile, very reliable and sturdy but with a very slow theoretical rate of fire of only 450 rpm; it seems it was produced also in the German 7,92x57 caliber.
Two Italian firearms were really appreciated by the Germans and kept in full production for their needs: the Beretta M34 automatic pistol in 9x17 and the MAB (Moschetto Automatico Beretta) M38 sub-machine gun in 9mm Parabellum. The M34 pistol could not be modified to use any other, more powerful ammunition and was manufactured in its original form, the MAB fired a cartridge that was already in use in the German armed forces so there was no need to change it. Minor modifications were requested in the production mainly to simplify it and lower production cost.

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Re: Northern Italian/RSI economy under the Germans

#7

Post by Poot » 11 Dec 2014, 23:08

Thanks for the reply, ML59. I sent a PM response to you yesterday.
Best,
Pat
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ML59
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Re: Northern Italian/RSI economy under the Germans

#8

Post by ML59 » 12 Dec 2014, 09:15

Some confusion arisen in the post war years about the 7,92x57 Carcano rifles because, for many years unknown to the public, small quantities were in fact manufactured in the Mauser caliber post-1945, to satisfy orders received from Arab countries, namely UAR (the short lived political union between Egypt and Syria). There are no clear records but some sources reports that the total production was in the region of 10.000 pcs. When, many years after their adoption, some examples re-surfaced on the civil market, they created a bit of confusion among collectors.

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Re: Northern Italian/RSI economy under the Germans

#9

Post by Sid Guttridge » 12 Dec 2014, 14:41

In his memoirs, Kesselring opines that in 1945 the Italian Front could have become largely self sufficient by using Northern Italian industry.

This strikes me as improbable, given Allied air supremacy, etc.

However, it is a fact that the great majority of Italy's war industry was in German hands in Northern Italy until the last month of the war, so this was, at least, a theoretical possibility.

Sid.

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Re: Northern Italian/RSI economy under the Germans

#10

Post by ML59 » 12 Dec 2014, 20:02

It's true that the Italian theatre was, by late 1944, largely sell-sufficient but, nevertheless, it suffered from the same problems that were already crippling the German war effort everywhere else:
-complete allied air supremacy
-almost nihil operational and tactical mobility of the troops due to lack of fuel, lubricants, tires
-paralyzed transportation system, with all major transportation hubs bombed to ashes all over North Italy, bridges and tunnels destroyed, rolling stock put out of service

Goods and weapons were still being produced but, in most cases could not be delivered to Germany or to troops in Italy due to the total collapse, by 1945, of transports.

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Re: Northern Italian/RSI economy under the Germans

#11

Post by Poot » 13 Dec 2014, 02:53

ML59,
Do you have any information on German-directed manufacture and distribution of Carcano rifles/carbines outside of the aforementioned Krieghoff conversions? How much control did they exert at Armaguerra Cremona, or other factories like Gardone and FNA-Brescia?
Thanks,
Pat
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Re: Northern Italian/RSI economy under the Germans

#12

Post by ML59 » 13 Dec 2014, 11:37

Poot,
Armaguerra was founded in 1938 by commendatore Ettore Francesco Nasturzio (1882 – 1963) and avvocato Adriano Montano, two gentlemen from Genoa previously active into the bananas trading business from Somalia to Italy

Nobody knows exactly why they decided to establish the company in the neighborhood of Cremona, it could be that the owners hoped, in that way, to get political support from the very famous fascist minister Roberto Farinacci, born in Cremona and a local "ras".
It seems that the Armaguerra company (in Italian language means "Warweapon") received a lot of funds from the government to allow production start, maybe as a compensation for the nationalization of all bananas business through the imposition of a state-controlled monopoly.

Anyhow, in november 1939 comm. Nasturzio and Mr Gino Revelli, son of Abiel Revelli, the designer of the WW1 standard Italian machine gun FIAT-Revelli mod.1914, patented the design of a self loading rifle that competed against prototypes from Breda and Scotti and, finally, in 1943, adopted by the Italian Army and put in limited production. But for most of the war years the production focused on license-copies of the Carcano carbine and Beretta M34 automatic pistol. Both weapons were marked Armaguerra on the receiver and on the barrel.
In addition to the self-loading rifle adopted (but never issued) by the Army in 1943, Armaguerra designed three quite innovative sub-machine guns: OG43, OG44 and a model produced in small quantities for the RSI forces by the Fabbrica Nazionale d'Armi di Brescia (in short F.N.A.B.) and colloquially known as the "mitra Zerbino" from the name of the RSI interior minister Paolo Zerbino, shot by partisans on April 28th, 1945.

After September 8th, 1943, the factory passed under direct control of German authorities and kept on manufacturing the same M34 pistols and M91 carbine for the occupying forces. Relationship with workers became, at times, very strained and several times the Germans threatened to deport workers and machinery in Germany. Actually, some machines were moved to the Riva del Garda area where they were installed inside road tunnels and used to convert M91 Carcano rifles and carbines to German 7,92x57 cartridge.

The factory was converted to civil production after the war, at first manufacturing mopeds, then fire-fighting equipments but it went bankrupt in the middle of the '50s and closed down.
Last edited by ML59 on 14 Dec 2014, 00:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Northern Italian/RSI economy under the Germans

#13

Post by Poot » 13 Dec 2014, 23:31

Thanks ML59-
Pat
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[Hans Leyers] Northern Italian/RSI economy under the Germans

#14

Post by Fallen » 18 Nov 2017, 17:55

Any thoughts about a person choosing to describe the war production report provided in this thread as being one Leyers, as the (then former) plenipotentiary for (Ministry of) Armaments and War Production in Italy, wrote about Org Todt activities? (While it briefly mentions same, obviously not the subject of the report.)

As (former) head of OT, Xavier Dorsch was, let's say, inspired to write one - which he did (and later even expanded on it until it reached a length of 500 pages, give or take). (I haven't come across an English translation of it, so if someone else has access to one...)

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Re: Northern Italian/RSI economy under the Germans

#15

Post by Poot » 22 Nov 2017, 08:08

Fallen,
I've read your post a few times and am not sure what you're asking in the first paragraph.
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