Weighing in late and not offering much except to note that (in my opinion) most war time reporting was extremely biased if not pure propaganda. Consequently, its not a much good as a primary source.
It would also like to offer a quote from the Introduction of Gordon Corrigan's book "Blood, Sweat, and Arrogance- The Myth of Churchill's War." "There are lies, damn lies, and regimental histories." What the gentlemen was referring to (who is a 39 year veteran of the British army) is that regimental histories are written with a view toward the future and will tend to omit or minimize downfalls and magnify accomplishments. Unfortunately, this also tends to make them suspect unless supported by independent accounts.
While, I may not agree with the entire list of Italian victories; I do agree that individually the Italian soldiers fought bravely. They were badly lead and their equipment was sub-standard, but their ability to overcome these limitations and deliver a credible battlefield performance is to their credit.
101 Italian WW2 victories & counting
Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting
Coming to Italian military victories of WW2, how about those of period from the late 1943 to the spring 1945 when there were Italians at both sides, how should they be counted?
For example a successful of ambush of Germans by Italian partisans could be considered "Italian victory" and a successful air combat by Italian "Social Republic" air forces also?
For example a successful of ambush of Germans by Italian partisans could be considered "Italian victory" and a successful air combat by Italian "Social Republic" air forces also?
-
Sid Guttridge
- Member
- Posts: 10162
- Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19
Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting
While I am all in favour of a reasonable rehabilitation of Italy's military reputation, let's not get too carried away.
After all, 4th Indian Division, which only fought in Italian colonies or in Italy itself, alone claimed 150,000 prisoners during the war.
Cheers,
Sid.
After all, 4th Indian Division, which only fought in Italian colonies or in Italy itself, alone claimed 150,000 prisoners during the war.
Cheers,
Sid.
Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting
Wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Social_Republic - based on some literature sources claims:
"In 1944, after the withdrawal of all German fighter units in the attempt to stop the increased Allied offensive on the German mainland, ANR fighter groups were left alone and heavily outnumbered, to face the massive Allied air offensive over Northern Italy. In the operation time of 1944 and 1945 the ANR managed to shoot down 262 Allied aircraft with the loss of 158 in action."
Taking in account that Germans at the same time were losing more aircraft in combat than managed to shoot down themselves against Allied at Western front, the ANR air combat record could be regarded as a minor Italian victory although the Social Republic was just a puppet state of Germans. However, the rationale of Allied bombing campaign in Northern Italy was often questionable as bombs frequently fell upon civil targets killing ordinary Italians and destroying their houses. So in a way downed Allied bombers meant somewhat less bombs falling upon Italian civilians.
"In 1944, after the withdrawal of all German fighter units in the attempt to stop the increased Allied offensive on the German mainland, ANR fighter groups were left alone and heavily outnumbered, to face the massive Allied air offensive over Northern Italy. In the operation time of 1944 and 1945 the ANR managed to shoot down 262 Allied aircraft with the loss of 158 in action."
Taking in account that Germans at the same time were losing more aircraft in combat than managed to shoot down themselves against Allied at Western front, the ANR air combat record could be regarded as a minor Italian victory although the Social Republic was just a puppet state of Germans. However, the rationale of Allied bombing campaign in Northern Italy was often questionable as bombs frequently fell upon civil targets killing ordinary Italians and destroying their houses. So in a way downed Allied bombers meant somewhat less bombs falling upon Italian civilians.
-
carlodinechi
- Member
- Posts: 122
- Joined: 15 Sep 2008, 08:55
Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting
The Italians did score a victory during Operation Compass:
"Around midday on January 10, waves of Italian air force Ju87 Stukas attacked the ship and six or seven thousand-pound bombs hit their target, set fire to aviation fuel below decks and destroyed the carrier's steering system. The attack took only ten minutes." (Aces, Warriors and Wingmen: The First Hand Accounts of Canada's Fighter Pilots in the Second World War, Wayne Ralp, p. 15, John Wiley & Sons, 2008)
Vice-Admiral Malta, Sir Wilbraham Ford's report that confirms the Stuka attacks that crippled HMS Illustrious on 11 January 1941, during Operation Crusader, were principally Italian:
"H.M.S. ILLUSTRIOUS was attacked at 1240 by about 25 dive bombers, by high level bombers at 1330 and again by 15 dive bombers at 1610 and by torpedo aircraft at 1920 and received six bomb hits and several near misses from heavy bombs estimated about one thousand pounds. Five bombers were JU. 87 with German markings. Armoured flight deck was pierced and several fires in forward section of hangar deck and officers quarters burnt out. Fire not finally extinguished until 0200. All fire control circuits in after group cut and conveyor hit. One pom pom destroyed. Both forward groups and five pom poms still in action. After lift wrecked and machinery out of action. Forward lift seriously damaged. Ship flooded abaft 136 bulkhead, probably some underwater damage. Ship is useless as a carrier until major refit has been carried out. Main machinery undamaged. Steering gear was put out of action and ship brought into Malta steering by engines. Casualties 83 killed 60 seriously wounded 40 light wounds approximately including several officers." (The Fleet Air Arm in the Second World War, Ben Jones, p. ?, Ashgate Publishing, Ltd., 2012)
"Around midday on January 10, waves of Italian air force Ju87 Stukas attacked the ship and six or seven thousand-pound bombs hit their target, set fire to aviation fuel below decks and destroyed the carrier's steering system. The attack took only ten minutes." (Aces, Warriors and Wingmen: The First Hand Accounts of Canada's Fighter Pilots in the Second World War, Wayne Ralp, p. 15, John Wiley & Sons, 2008)
Vice-Admiral Malta, Sir Wilbraham Ford's report that confirms the Stuka attacks that crippled HMS Illustrious on 11 January 1941, during Operation Crusader, were principally Italian:
"H.M.S. ILLUSTRIOUS was attacked at 1240 by about 25 dive bombers, by high level bombers at 1330 and again by 15 dive bombers at 1610 and by torpedo aircraft at 1920 and received six bomb hits and several near misses from heavy bombs estimated about one thousand pounds. Five bombers were JU. 87 with German markings. Armoured flight deck was pierced and several fires in forward section of hangar deck and officers quarters burnt out. Fire not finally extinguished until 0200. All fire control circuits in after group cut and conveyor hit. One pom pom destroyed. Both forward groups and five pom poms still in action. After lift wrecked and machinery out of action. Forward lift seriously damaged. Ship flooded abaft 136 bulkhead, probably some underwater damage. Ship is useless as a carrier until major refit has been carried out. Main machinery undamaged. Steering gear was put out of action and ship brought into Malta steering by engines. Casualties 83 killed 60 seriously wounded 40 light wounds approximately including several officers." (The Fleet Air Arm in the Second World War, Ben Jones, p. ?, Ashgate Publishing, Ltd., 2012)
Last edited by carlodinechi on 11 Apr 2015, 02:54, edited 1 time in total.
-
carlodinechi
- Member
- Posts: 122
- Joined: 15 Sep 2008, 08:55
Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting
Proof the morale of the Australian garrison at Tobruk was badly affected immediately after the Battle of the Salient (1-3 May 1941):
"In one five-day period in early May 1941, after the second major German assault on the Red Line, medical units treated 30 cases of self-inflicted bullet wounds." (A Medical Emergency: Major-General 'Ginger' Burston and the Army Medical Service in World War II , Ian Howie-Willis, p. 187, Big Sky Publishing, 2012)
"More disturbing was the large number of self-inflicted wound (SIW) cases. During a single week in May the division reported thirty SIW cases..." (Armies of Empire: The 9th Australian and 50th British Divisions in Battle 1939–1945, Allan Converse, p. 86, Cambridge University Press, 2011)
During the Battle of the Salient the participating Italian units employed flamethrowers:
"Two companies get off their motor lorries and extend in battle order. All sorts of light signals go up — green, white, red. The flares hiss down near our own MGs. It is already too late to take aim. Well, the attack is a failure. The little Fiat-Ansaldos go up in front with flame-throwers in order to clean up the triangle. Long streaks of flame, thick smoke, filthy stink. We provide cover until 2345 hours, then retire through the gap. It is a mad drive through the dust. At 0300 hours have snack beside tank. 24 hours shut up in the tank, with frightful cramp as a result — and thirsty!" http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=ht ... 5+22:14:28
During the night of 16-17 May, Italian infantry again employed flamethrowers against the Australians:
"On the night on 16 May 1941, two platoons of the 3rd Combat Engineer Company in unison with assault groups of the "Brescia" Infantry Division, which had been sent as reinforcements on the 11th of that month, initiated the attack. With total disregard to danger and with their usual stealth, the combat sappers opened three paths in the wire fencing in front of each assault group. They used explosive charges in tubes. Fighting side by side with the assaulters, in fierce hand-to-hand combat, they inflicted heavy losses on the enemy, and obtained the objective." http://www.guastatori.it/i-guastatori-n ... btg-g-gua/
The Australian garrison was taken out of Tobruk because of combat fatigue:
The historians say General Auchinleck, on the eve of a major battle, refused Canberra's request to relieve the Australian 9th Division in Tobruk because they said the Australians' health was suffering "to the point where it was not longer capable of resisting attack." https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid= ... 6754&hl=en (Australians at Tobruk; General's Clash With Government, The Age, September 14, 1964)
Proof Australian soldiers were suffering from combat fatigue:
"In May 1941 a 'war neurosis clinic' of 70 beds was established in an underground concrete shelter in the city. Of the 204 admissions treated by Lt Colonel E.L. Cooper and Captain A.J.M Sinclair 61% were reported as serving with fighting units..." (Shell Shock to PTSD: Military Psychiatry from 1900 to the Gulf War, Edgar Jones, Simon Wessely, p. 67, Psychology Press, 2005)
More proof:
"The 9th Division tried sixty-four soldiers between June and October 1941 ... Patrols grew less popular and more dangerous as the siege went on ... Soldiers became more reluctant to take risks, or even to go out on patrol at all. Lieutenant Samuel Cooper of the 2/12th Battalion 'nearly had a mutiny on my hands' when he had to order some recalcitrant soldiers to join a patrol ... In a few cases, patrollers did not go so far as ordered or faked their reports ... Corporal C.B. went on patrol in June and returned alone, having become separated from the rest of his patrol. He reported that he had gone more than 9000 yards into Axis lines and gave valuable information about enemy armour. The story was actually a complete fabrication." (Armies of Empire: The 9th Australian and 50th British Divisions in Battle 1939–1945, Allan Converse, pp. 86-87, Cambridge University Press, 2011)
Proof Italians manning the siege lines were no pushovers:
On the night of 11/12 July, two Australian night-fighting-patrols from the 2/12th Battalion attacked the forward elements of the Pavia in the form of a reinforced rifle platoon, dug-in near El Adem Road. Under the cover of artillery fire, one patrol marched off into the night, but soon came under machine-gun fire and seeking cover suffered three casualties due to Italian booby-traps before being able to resume their advance and capture three and kill or wound a number of Italians, but at the cost of another three casualties. In the meantime, the other patrol managed to reach the other part of the Italian platoon at grid reference 40934185 with the help of artillery fire, killing or wounding, according to 2/12th Battalion's war diary, "between 30 and 40" Italians and capturing two, but at the cost of seven more Australian casualties. During the action, Second Lieutenant Cesare Giacobbe, the Italian platoon commander from the 27th Pavia Infantry Regiment, won posthumously the Medaglia d'Oro. Despite being wounded, the young officer personally fired an automatic rifle and employed hand grenades, helping cover the retreat of the remainder of his platoon, before being shot a second time and killed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/17th_Infa ... a_Campaign
"In one five-day period in early May 1941, after the second major German assault on the Red Line, medical units treated 30 cases of self-inflicted bullet wounds." (A Medical Emergency: Major-General 'Ginger' Burston and the Army Medical Service in World War II , Ian Howie-Willis, p. 187, Big Sky Publishing, 2012)
"More disturbing was the large number of self-inflicted wound (SIW) cases. During a single week in May the division reported thirty SIW cases..." (Armies of Empire: The 9th Australian and 50th British Divisions in Battle 1939–1945, Allan Converse, p. 86, Cambridge University Press, 2011)
During the Battle of the Salient the participating Italian units employed flamethrowers:
"Two companies get off their motor lorries and extend in battle order. All sorts of light signals go up — green, white, red. The flares hiss down near our own MGs. It is already too late to take aim. Well, the attack is a failure. The little Fiat-Ansaldos go up in front with flame-throwers in order to clean up the triangle. Long streaks of flame, thick smoke, filthy stink. We provide cover until 2345 hours, then retire through the gap. It is a mad drive through the dust. At 0300 hours have snack beside tank. 24 hours shut up in the tank, with frightful cramp as a result — and thirsty!" http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=ht ... 5+22:14:28
During the night of 16-17 May, Italian infantry again employed flamethrowers against the Australians:
"On the night on 16 May 1941, two platoons of the 3rd Combat Engineer Company in unison with assault groups of the "Brescia" Infantry Division, which had been sent as reinforcements on the 11th of that month, initiated the attack. With total disregard to danger and with their usual stealth, the combat sappers opened three paths in the wire fencing in front of each assault group. They used explosive charges in tubes. Fighting side by side with the assaulters, in fierce hand-to-hand combat, they inflicted heavy losses on the enemy, and obtained the objective." http://www.guastatori.it/i-guastatori-n ... btg-g-gua/
The Australian garrison was taken out of Tobruk because of combat fatigue:
The historians say General Auchinleck, on the eve of a major battle, refused Canberra's request to relieve the Australian 9th Division in Tobruk because they said the Australians' health was suffering "to the point where it was not longer capable of resisting attack." https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid= ... 6754&hl=en (Australians at Tobruk; General's Clash With Government, The Age, September 14, 1964)
Proof Australian soldiers were suffering from combat fatigue:
"In May 1941 a 'war neurosis clinic' of 70 beds was established in an underground concrete shelter in the city. Of the 204 admissions treated by Lt Colonel E.L. Cooper and Captain A.J.M Sinclair 61% were reported as serving with fighting units..." (Shell Shock to PTSD: Military Psychiatry from 1900 to the Gulf War, Edgar Jones, Simon Wessely, p. 67, Psychology Press, 2005)
More proof:
"The 9th Division tried sixty-four soldiers between June and October 1941 ... Patrols grew less popular and more dangerous as the siege went on ... Soldiers became more reluctant to take risks, or even to go out on patrol at all. Lieutenant Samuel Cooper of the 2/12th Battalion 'nearly had a mutiny on my hands' when he had to order some recalcitrant soldiers to join a patrol ... In a few cases, patrollers did not go so far as ordered or faked their reports ... Corporal C.B. went on patrol in June and returned alone, having become separated from the rest of his patrol. He reported that he had gone more than 9000 yards into Axis lines and gave valuable information about enemy armour. The story was actually a complete fabrication." (Armies of Empire: The 9th Australian and 50th British Divisions in Battle 1939–1945, Allan Converse, pp. 86-87, Cambridge University Press, 2011)
Proof Italians manning the siege lines were no pushovers:
On the night of 11/12 July, two Australian night-fighting-patrols from the 2/12th Battalion attacked the forward elements of the Pavia in the form of a reinforced rifle platoon, dug-in near El Adem Road. Under the cover of artillery fire, one patrol marched off into the night, but soon came under machine-gun fire and seeking cover suffered three casualties due to Italian booby-traps before being able to resume their advance and capture three and kill or wound a number of Italians, but at the cost of another three casualties. In the meantime, the other patrol managed to reach the other part of the Italian platoon at grid reference 40934185 with the help of artillery fire, killing or wounding, according to 2/12th Battalion's war diary, "between 30 and 40" Italians and capturing two, but at the cost of seven more Australian casualties. During the action, Second Lieutenant Cesare Giacobbe, the Italian platoon commander from the 27th Pavia Infantry Regiment, won posthumously the Medaglia d'Oro. Despite being wounded, the young officer personally fired an automatic rifle and employed hand grenades, helping cover the retreat of the remainder of his platoon, before being shot a second time and killed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/17th_Infa ... a_Campaign
-
carlodinechi
- Member
- Posts: 122
- Joined: 15 Sep 2008, 08:55
Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting
Greeks units defeated by Italians:
"On 13 February, General Papagos, the Commander-in-Chief of the Greek army, opened a new offensive, aiming to take Tepelenë and the port of Vlorë with British air support, but the Greek divisions encountered stiff resistance, stalling the offensive that practically destroyed the Cretan 5th Division." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of ... te_note-32
"On 21 March, the Regia Aeronautica scored some success, when thirty Macchi C.200 Saetta fighters attacked and destroyed all the RAF Vickers Wellington medium bombers parked at Paramythia, near the Albanian border in Northern Greece." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of ... te_note-35
On 15 April, Regia Aeronautic fighters attacked the (RHAF) base at Paramythia, 30 miles south of Greece's border with Albania, destroying or putting out of action 17 VVKJ aircraft that had recently arrived from Yugoslavia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of ... e_note-127
"Shortly afterwards, generals Pitsikas and Bakos entered, visibly shaken, to meet with Papagos, the commander of the Epiros Army Department, warned of 'a danger of a complete collapse' of the army's morale. Papagos at first was inclined to dismiss the fears. It was taking him a long time to tear himself away from the attack mode that had proven so successful a few months before. But there were 200,000 men in uniform languishing in Albania, not knowing what their fate would be. The commanders were as confused as the men". (John Carr, (Pen and Sword, 2013) The Defence and Fall of Greece 1940-1941, p. 218)
"More seriously, outbreaks of mutiny occurred in the 5th (Cretan) and 6th Divisions. A few dozen deserters were caught at the Mertzani Bridge on the border and promptly executed, but that didn't stop the rot. Amid these signs of an army's disintegration, on 14 April Major General Katsimitros of the much-bloodied 8th Division appealed to Pitsikas to consider an armistice with the Germans merely to keep some of the army intact.".(John Carr, (Pen and Sword, 2013) The Defence and Fall of Greece 1940-1941, p. 219)
Italians pinned the bulk of the Geek army in Albania, so Thermopylai position falls early:
"At an inconclusive meeting at the Grande Bretagne on 18 April, Wilson said he was willing to hold the line at Thermopylai until 5 May as long as Papagos could pull his forces out of Albania in time to prop up the left wing". (John Carr, (Pen and Sword, 2013) The Defence and Fall of Greece 1940-1941, p. 226)
British forced to abandon Mt. Olympus position because Italians capture Koritsa.
"Their courage, like that of the defenders of the Metaxas line, was to no avail; as so often happens to troops occupying a static position in mobile warfare, the battle was being decided elsewhere ... List now detached SS 'Adolf Hitler' from the main axis of advance of XXXXth corps and sent it forward in the direction of Koritsa. Far from counter-attacking, however, the demoralized Greeks gave way and thus allowed the Italians to occupy the town without resistance on 15 April. With 9th armoured division crossing the upper Aliakhmon and reaching Servia on the next day, the British forces on the Olympus found themselves surrounded on both flanks. following a decision made by Wilson three days earlier they now started falling back across Thessaly to Thermopylae, leaving in their wake 20,000 Greek troops who, being less well endowed with motor vehicles, failed to escape in time and were captured by the Germans." (Martin van Crevald, Hitler's Strategy 1940-1941: The Balkan Clue, p. 162, Cambridge University Press, 1973)
"On 13 February, General Papagos, the Commander-in-Chief of the Greek army, opened a new offensive, aiming to take Tepelenë and the port of Vlorë with British air support, but the Greek divisions encountered stiff resistance, stalling the offensive that practically destroyed the Cretan 5th Division." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of ... te_note-32
"On 21 March, the Regia Aeronautica scored some success, when thirty Macchi C.200 Saetta fighters attacked and destroyed all the RAF Vickers Wellington medium bombers parked at Paramythia, near the Albanian border in Northern Greece." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of ... te_note-35
On 15 April, Regia Aeronautic fighters attacked the (RHAF) base at Paramythia, 30 miles south of Greece's border with Albania, destroying or putting out of action 17 VVKJ aircraft that had recently arrived from Yugoslavia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of ... e_note-127
"Shortly afterwards, generals Pitsikas and Bakos entered, visibly shaken, to meet with Papagos, the commander of the Epiros Army Department, warned of 'a danger of a complete collapse' of the army's morale. Papagos at first was inclined to dismiss the fears. It was taking him a long time to tear himself away from the attack mode that had proven so successful a few months before. But there were 200,000 men in uniform languishing in Albania, not knowing what their fate would be. The commanders were as confused as the men". (John Carr, (Pen and Sword, 2013) The Defence and Fall of Greece 1940-1941, p. 218)
"More seriously, outbreaks of mutiny occurred in the 5th (Cretan) and 6th Divisions. A few dozen deserters were caught at the Mertzani Bridge on the border and promptly executed, but that didn't stop the rot. Amid these signs of an army's disintegration, on 14 April Major General Katsimitros of the much-bloodied 8th Division appealed to Pitsikas to consider an armistice with the Germans merely to keep some of the army intact.".(John Carr, (Pen and Sword, 2013) The Defence and Fall of Greece 1940-1941, p. 219)
Italians pinned the bulk of the Geek army in Albania, so Thermopylai position falls early:
"At an inconclusive meeting at the Grande Bretagne on 18 April, Wilson said he was willing to hold the line at Thermopylai until 5 May as long as Papagos could pull his forces out of Albania in time to prop up the left wing". (John Carr, (Pen and Sword, 2013) The Defence and Fall of Greece 1940-1941, p. 226)
British forced to abandon Mt. Olympus position because Italians capture Koritsa.
"Their courage, like that of the defenders of the Metaxas line, was to no avail; as so often happens to troops occupying a static position in mobile warfare, the battle was being decided elsewhere ... List now detached SS 'Adolf Hitler' from the main axis of advance of XXXXth corps and sent it forward in the direction of Koritsa. Far from counter-attacking, however, the demoralized Greeks gave way and thus allowed the Italians to occupy the town without resistance on 15 April. With 9th armoured division crossing the upper Aliakhmon and reaching Servia on the next day, the British forces on the Olympus found themselves surrounded on both flanks. following a decision made by Wilson three days earlier they now started falling back across Thessaly to Thermopylae, leaving in their wake 20,000 Greek troops who, being less well endowed with motor vehicles, failed to escape in time and were captured by the Germans." (Martin van Crevald, Hitler's Strategy 1940-1941: The Balkan Clue, p. 162, Cambridge University Press, 1973)
-
carlodinechi
- Member
- Posts: 122
- Joined: 15 Sep 2008, 08:55
Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting
Updating list of "101 Italian WW2 victories & counting" that were obtained in 1943
28.01.1943 Italian Supreme Headquarters reports that Italian troops have repelled an armoured thrust in Tunisia. ("An attack supported by armored forces against our positions in the Tunisian sector was repulsed." The New York Times, 28 January 1943)
29.01.1943 Italian bombers damage beyond repair the British anti-aircraft ship 'HMS Pozarica'.(Savoia-Marchetti S.79 Sparviero Torpedo-Bomber Units, Marco Mattioli, Mark Postlethwaite, Appendix B)
02.02.1943 Italian Supreme Headquarters reports that its troops in Tunisia have been successful in action with Allied forces. ("In Tunisia combats still are in progress in the areas reached by Axis troops during previous days. About 100 prisoners were taken and twelve tanks were put out of action." The New York Times, 2 February 1943)
("A second attack group, consisting of the Centauro Armored Division and German elements provided from the two German armored divisions, attacked through Maknassy in the direction of Gafsa. That attack came as a complete surprise to the U.S.Corps. The U.S. 1st Armored Division, which had established itself in the saddle of the Faid Pass, was ejected. Gafsa was evacuated." Das Afrika Korps: Erwin Rommel and the Germans in Africa, 1941-43, Franz Kurowski, p. 213)
18.02.1943 Germans fail to take Sbiba Pass, but the 7th Bersaglieri overrun the US vanguard at Kasserine Pass. ("Rommel returned to the railway station at Kasserine which briefly served as the combined command post of the German Africa Corps and the 10th Panzer Division, and ordered these two formations to take the Kasserine Pass. In the evening dusk Rommel observed, as he dictated for his diary, 'the exciting scene of the tank battle north of the pass'. He had special praise for the 7th Bersaglieri, who attacked fiercely and whose commander fell during the attack; they threw the American, British and French forces out of the pass in joint action with the II/86 and the K 10." Stauffenberg: A Family History, 1905-1944, Peter Hoffman, p.171, McGill-Queen's Press, 2008)
("The new commander of DAK Assault Group, General Bulowius, complimented them on their élan, which contributed significantly to Axis success. The Italian action was instrumental in breaking through the US positions and in opening up the road to Thala and Tebessa." Iron Hulls, Iron Hearts: Mussolini's Elite Armoured Divisions in North Africa, Ian Walker, p.?, Crowood Press, 2006)
("Axis forces also made a breakthrough on Highway 13, where the Italians of the Centauro Division spearheaded the attack. In the early morning hours, the Italians pressed their offensive, broke through the remains of the American line, and continued up Highway 13." Facing The Fox, Brian John Murphy, America in WWII, April 2006, http://web.archive.org/web/200901310232 ... thefox.htm)
("The American collapse began in earnest by late morning. At 11:22 the 19th Engineers' commander, Colonel A.T.W. Moore, warned Stark by radio that enemy infantry and tanks were forcing the pass along Highway 13. An engineer major bellowed: "Forget about our equipment and just save your life." Artillery observers fled, explaining plausibly if ingloriously: "This place is too hot." Companies disintegrated into platoons, platoons into squads, squads into solitary foot soldiers chased to the rear by screaming meemies. Half an hour later, Moore radioed, "Enemy overrunning our C.P.," and bolted for high ground. He soon arrived at Stark's tent to announce that the 19th Engineers no longer existed." An Army At Dawn: The War in North Africa, Rick Atkinson, p.?, Henry Holt and Company, 2007)
24.02.1943 5th Bersaglieri successfully covers the retreat of Rommel. ("The German material was scarcer because the Nazis pulled out when they saw the couldn't slug their way through the joint American and British defense and left the Italians to bear the full weight of the counterattack alone."Yanks Get Plenty of Trophies in Sweep on Kasserine Pass The Milwaukee Journal, 26 February, 1943 https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid= ... 7008&hl=en)
??.03.1943 Italian SS battalions successfully defend their positions at Anzio, despite repeated American attacks.
29-31.03.1943 Italian troops successfully defend El Hamma in North Africa. ("The enemy positions seemed impregnable, and, in fact, the Italians manning them held out for three days. Next morning Rommel ... replaced the Italians with crack German troops ... but the enemy, finally fellback into the ravine...the morale of 20-year-old prisoners fresh from the Russian front was low, they made no attempt to hide their satisfaction at being out of the war." The Glasgow Herald, 1 April, 1943)
10.07.1943 Italian dive bombers sink the American destroyer USS 'Maddox' off Sicily.
10.07.1943 The 'Livorno' Division overruns part of the American 26th Infantry Regiment. ("The Americans suddenly beat a quick withdrawal, during which Leonardi's 3rd Battalion seized their positions, taking a number of weapons and prisoners from the U.S. 26th Infantry Regiment." Mussolini's War, Frank Joseph, p ?) ("The 1st and 4th Ranger Battalions hit the beach at 3:00 A.M. and antipersonnel mines and rifle fire took a heavy toll. D Company of the 4th Battalion, for example, lost all of its officers. After moving off the beach and destroying several pillboxes, the Rangers entered Gela. Fighting was house-to-house, but by midmorning the Rangers had the town. The victory was interrupted around 10:30 A.M., when the seasoned Italian Livorno Division counterattacked and nine Italian light tanks broke the Rangers' outer defensive positions." Beyond Valor: World War II's Ranger and Airborne Veterans Reveal the Heart of Combat, Patrick K. O'Donnell, p. 38)
14.07.1943 The Napoli Division overruns part of the British Staffordshire Regiment defending Ponte Grande in Sicily.
14.07.1943 Bersaglieri troops supported by Semoventes, overrun 400 British Commandos defending Malati Bridge in Sicily.
16.07.1943 The Italian submarine 'RN Dandolo' disables the British cruiser 'HMS Cleopatra'.
16.07.1943 Italian bombers cripple the British aircraft carrier 'HMS Indomitable'. ("The carrier HMS Indomitable is damaged by a torpedo bomber." Mussolini’s Navy, Maurizio Brescoa, p. 50)
31.07.1943 The 'Aosta' Division on Mount Troina (Sicily), overruns part of an American battalion. (4 agosto: il I btg. del 5° fant. (« Aosta »), attaccato in questo settore e ridotto a 350 uomini, mantiene le posizioni e fa 40 prigionieri. L' invasione della Sicilia 1943: Avvenimenti militari e responsabilità politiche, Gaetano Zingali, p. 336, G. Crisafulli, 1962 ) ("For his leadership n this action, Lieutenant Colonel Gianquinto was awarded the Iron Cross by the Germans. His battalion returned from this combat with only 170 men. Ultimately, its parent formation—the 5th Regiment— would cross the Straits of Messina to Calabria with only 600 men, while the 6th Regiment would make it across with only 700 men." Regio Esercito: The Italian Royal Army in Mussolini's Wars, 1935-1943, Patrick Cloutier, p. 201, Lulu, 2013)
02.08.1943 The 'Assietta' Division at Santa Agata in the form of four battalions, although allocated the "the most exposed section" of the Italo-German strongpoint, successfully defends the rear of the 29th Panzergrenadier Division. (Ring of Steel Thrown Around Foe In Sicily, St. Petersburg Times, 4 August 1943 https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=3 ... &dq=&hl=en) ("Four battalions from the Aosta's 5th and 6th Regiments were on hand to support the German defence of Troina." Regio Esercito: The Italian Royal Army in Mussolini's Wars, 1935-1943, Patrick Cloutier, p. 200, Lulu, 2013) (The Battle for Sicily: Stepping Stone to Victory, Ian Blackwell, p. 181, Pen & Sword Military, 24 July 2008)
15.08.1943 Italian bombers from 132° Gruppo sink the US tank landing ship LST-414. (Savoia-Marchetti S.79 Sparviero Torpedo-Bomber Units, Marco Mattioli, Mark Postlethwaite, Appendix B)
04.09.1943 Fighters from 5th Stormo sink four US tank landing ships.
07.09.1943 Italian bombers from 132° Gruppo damage beyond repair the US tank landing ship LST-417. (Savoia-Marchetti S.79 Sparviero Torpedo-Bomber Units, Marco Mattioli, Mark Postlethwaite, Appendix B)
1-3.10.1943 The 'Monterosa' Division repels attacks from the Brazilian Expeditionary Force.
29.10.1944 The 'Monterosa' & 'Italia' Divisions overrun part of the Brazilian forces. ("The next morning the Brazilian lines were hit by a major counter-attack by ... battalions from the RSI "Monterosa" and 4th Bersaglieri "Italia" divisions." Brazilian Expeditionary Force in World War II, Ricardo Bonalume Neto, p. ?)
Mid-December 1944 Italian Waffen SS units fighting alongside German units repel several American attacks outside Bologna city. The Americans suffer 15,700 casualties & call off their assaults. (Mussolini's War, Frank Joseph, p. 197)
26.12.1944 Mussolini & Marshal Graziani devise OPERATION WINTERSTORM. In the Axis counteroffensive the 'Monte Rosa' & 'San Marco' Divisions overrun the US 92nd Division. The Italians successfully defend their gains for several months. ("Nothing could dislodge the gains made by Operation Winsterstorm. These comprised a conquered wedge twenty kilometres wide and nine kilometres deep which stood largely intact throughout the rest of the war. In fact, its defenders continued fighting for days after Mussolini's death the following year." Mussolini's War, Frank Joseph, p. 198)
01.01-03.03.1945 Italian Fascist Divisions successfully defend the Gothic Line. ("Still not routed, the Germans and their RSI allies thereafter successfully defended the 'Gothic line', running from the Tyrrhenian to the Adriatic Sea south of Bologna and the other gateways to the Po valley. That richest part of Italy was not liberated until the last days of the war in April 1945." Mussolini's Italy: Life Under the Dictatorship, 1915-1945, R J B Bosworth,p. ?)
28.01.1943 Italian Supreme Headquarters reports that Italian troops have repelled an armoured thrust in Tunisia. ("An attack supported by armored forces against our positions in the Tunisian sector was repulsed." The New York Times, 28 January 1943)
29.01.1943 Italian bombers damage beyond repair the British anti-aircraft ship 'HMS Pozarica'.(Savoia-Marchetti S.79 Sparviero Torpedo-Bomber Units, Marco Mattioli, Mark Postlethwaite, Appendix B)
02.02.1943 Italian Supreme Headquarters reports that its troops in Tunisia have been successful in action with Allied forces. ("In Tunisia combats still are in progress in the areas reached by Axis troops during previous days. About 100 prisoners were taken and twelve tanks were put out of action." The New York Times, 2 February 1943)
("A second attack group, consisting of the Centauro Armored Division and German elements provided from the two German armored divisions, attacked through Maknassy in the direction of Gafsa. That attack came as a complete surprise to the U.S.Corps. The U.S. 1st Armored Division, which had established itself in the saddle of the Faid Pass, was ejected. Gafsa was evacuated." Das Afrika Korps: Erwin Rommel and the Germans in Africa, 1941-43, Franz Kurowski, p. 213)
18.02.1943 Germans fail to take Sbiba Pass, but the 7th Bersaglieri overrun the US vanguard at Kasserine Pass. ("Rommel returned to the railway station at Kasserine which briefly served as the combined command post of the German Africa Corps and the 10th Panzer Division, and ordered these two formations to take the Kasserine Pass. In the evening dusk Rommel observed, as he dictated for his diary, 'the exciting scene of the tank battle north of the pass'. He had special praise for the 7th Bersaglieri, who attacked fiercely and whose commander fell during the attack; they threw the American, British and French forces out of the pass in joint action with the II/86 and the K 10." Stauffenberg: A Family History, 1905-1944, Peter Hoffman, p.171, McGill-Queen's Press, 2008)
("The new commander of DAK Assault Group, General Bulowius, complimented them on their élan, which contributed significantly to Axis success. The Italian action was instrumental in breaking through the US positions and in opening up the road to Thala and Tebessa." Iron Hulls, Iron Hearts: Mussolini's Elite Armoured Divisions in North Africa, Ian Walker, p.?, Crowood Press, 2006)
("Axis forces also made a breakthrough on Highway 13, where the Italians of the Centauro Division spearheaded the attack. In the early morning hours, the Italians pressed their offensive, broke through the remains of the American line, and continued up Highway 13." Facing The Fox, Brian John Murphy, America in WWII, April 2006, http://web.archive.org/web/200901310232 ... thefox.htm)
("The American collapse began in earnest by late morning. At 11:22 the 19th Engineers' commander, Colonel A.T.W. Moore, warned Stark by radio that enemy infantry and tanks were forcing the pass along Highway 13. An engineer major bellowed: "Forget about our equipment and just save your life." Artillery observers fled, explaining plausibly if ingloriously: "This place is too hot." Companies disintegrated into platoons, platoons into squads, squads into solitary foot soldiers chased to the rear by screaming meemies. Half an hour later, Moore radioed, "Enemy overrunning our C.P.," and bolted for high ground. He soon arrived at Stark's tent to announce that the 19th Engineers no longer existed." An Army At Dawn: The War in North Africa, Rick Atkinson, p.?, Henry Holt and Company, 2007)
24.02.1943 5th Bersaglieri successfully covers the retreat of Rommel. ("The German material was scarcer because the Nazis pulled out when they saw the couldn't slug their way through the joint American and British defense and left the Italians to bear the full weight of the counterattack alone."Yanks Get Plenty of Trophies in Sweep on Kasserine Pass The Milwaukee Journal, 26 February, 1943 https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid= ... 7008&hl=en)
??.03.1943 Italian SS battalions successfully defend their positions at Anzio, despite repeated American attacks.
29-31.03.1943 Italian troops successfully defend El Hamma in North Africa. ("The enemy positions seemed impregnable, and, in fact, the Italians manning them held out for three days. Next morning Rommel ... replaced the Italians with crack German troops ... but the enemy, finally fellback into the ravine...the morale of 20-year-old prisoners fresh from the Russian front was low, they made no attempt to hide their satisfaction at being out of the war." The Glasgow Herald, 1 April, 1943)
10.07.1943 Italian dive bombers sink the American destroyer USS 'Maddox' off Sicily.
10.07.1943 The 'Livorno' Division overruns part of the American 26th Infantry Regiment. ("The Americans suddenly beat a quick withdrawal, during which Leonardi's 3rd Battalion seized their positions, taking a number of weapons and prisoners from the U.S. 26th Infantry Regiment." Mussolini's War, Frank Joseph, p ?) ("The 1st and 4th Ranger Battalions hit the beach at 3:00 A.M. and antipersonnel mines and rifle fire took a heavy toll. D Company of the 4th Battalion, for example, lost all of its officers. After moving off the beach and destroying several pillboxes, the Rangers entered Gela. Fighting was house-to-house, but by midmorning the Rangers had the town. The victory was interrupted around 10:30 A.M., when the seasoned Italian Livorno Division counterattacked and nine Italian light tanks broke the Rangers' outer defensive positions." Beyond Valor: World War II's Ranger and Airborne Veterans Reveal the Heart of Combat, Patrick K. O'Donnell, p. 38)
14.07.1943 The Napoli Division overruns part of the British Staffordshire Regiment defending Ponte Grande in Sicily.
14.07.1943 Bersaglieri troops supported by Semoventes, overrun 400 British Commandos defending Malati Bridge in Sicily.
16.07.1943 The Italian submarine 'RN Dandolo' disables the British cruiser 'HMS Cleopatra'.
16.07.1943 Italian bombers cripple the British aircraft carrier 'HMS Indomitable'. ("The carrier HMS Indomitable is damaged by a torpedo bomber." Mussolini’s Navy, Maurizio Brescoa, p. 50)
31.07.1943 The 'Aosta' Division on Mount Troina (Sicily), overruns part of an American battalion. (4 agosto: il I btg. del 5° fant. (« Aosta »), attaccato in questo settore e ridotto a 350 uomini, mantiene le posizioni e fa 40 prigionieri. L' invasione della Sicilia 1943: Avvenimenti militari e responsabilità politiche, Gaetano Zingali, p. 336, G. Crisafulli, 1962 ) ("For his leadership n this action, Lieutenant Colonel Gianquinto was awarded the Iron Cross by the Germans. His battalion returned from this combat with only 170 men. Ultimately, its parent formation—the 5th Regiment— would cross the Straits of Messina to Calabria with only 600 men, while the 6th Regiment would make it across with only 700 men." Regio Esercito: The Italian Royal Army in Mussolini's Wars, 1935-1943, Patrick Cloutier, p. 201, Lulu, 2013)
02.08.1943 The 'Assietta' Division at Santa Agata in the form of four battalions, although allocated the "the most exposed section" of the Italo-German strongpoint, successfully defends the rear of the 29th Panzergrenadier Division. (Ring of Steel Thrown Around Foe In Sicily, St. Petersburg Times, 4 August 1943 https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=3 ... &dq=&hl=en) ("Four battalions from the Aosta's 5th and 6th Regiments were on hand to support the German defence of Troina." Regio Esercito: The Italian Royal Army in Mussolini's Wars, 1935-1943, Patrick Cloutier, p. 200, Lulu, 2013) (The Battle for Sicily: Stepping Stone to Victory, Ian Blackwell, p. 181, Pen & Sword Military, 24 July 2008)
15.08.1943 Italian bombers from 132° Gruppo sink the US tank landing ship LST-414. (Savoia-Marchetti S.79 Sparviero Torpedo-Bomber Units, Marco Mattioli, Mark Postlethwaite, Appendix B)
04.09.1943 Fighters from 5th Stormo sink four US tank landing ships.
07.09.1943 Italian bombers from 132° Gruppo damage beyond repair the US tank landing ship LST-417. (Savoia-Marchetti S.79 Sparviero Torpedo-Bomber Units, Marco Mattioli, Mark Postlethwaite, Appendix B)
1-3.10.1943 The 'Monterosa' Division repels attacks from the Brazilian Expeditionary Force.
29.10.1944 The 'Monterosa' & 'Italia' Divisions overrun part of the Brazilian forces. ("The next morning the Brazilian lines were hit by a major counter-attack by ... battalions from the RSI "Monterosa" and 4th Bersaglieri "Italia" divisions." Brazilian Expeditionary Force in World War II, Ricardo Bonalume Neto, p. ?)
Mid-December 1944 Italian Waffen SS units fighting alongside German units repel several American attacks outside Bologna city. The Americans suffer 15,700 casualties & call off their assaults. (Mussolini's War, Frank Joseph, p. 197)
26.12.1944 Mussolini & Marshal Graziani devise OPERATION WINTERSTORM. In the Axis counteroffensive the 'Monte Rosa' & 'San Marco' Divisions overrun the US 92nd Division. The Italians successfully defend their gains for several months. ("Nothing could dislodge the gains made by Operation Winsterstorm. These comprised a conquered wedge twenty kilometres wide and nine kilometres deep which stood largely intact throughout the rest of the war. In fact, its defenders continued fighting for days after Mussolini's death the following year." Mussolini's War, Frank Joseph, p. 198)
01.01-03.03.1945 Italian Fascist Divisions successfully defend the Gothic Line. ("Still not routed, the Germans and their RSI allies thereafter successfully defended the 'Gothic line', running from the Tyrrhenian to the Adriatic Sea south of Bologna and the other gateways to the Po valley. That richest part of Italy was not liberated until the last days of the war in April 1945." Mussolini's Italy: Life Under the Dictatorship, 1915-1945, R J B Bosworth,p. ?)
Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting
Any examples of Italian regular troops (Italian Co-Belligerent Forces) fighting successfully against Germans after the armistice of 8.9.1943?
-
carlodinechi
- Member
- Posts: 122
- Joined: 15 Sep 2008, 08:55
Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting
Hello Durb. Yes, Bersaglieri triumphed over the SS troops defending Naples, inspiring the civilian population in taking up arms and liberating their city.
"Until the Allies arrived there has been havoc and the city is wrecked as a result of Allied bombing, German demolitions and the pitched battles which Italian regular army Bersaglieri regiments loyal to the King have been fighting with the Germans. When we arrived, there was shooting everywhere. Even six and eight year old boys were shooting, firing abandoned weapons into the air in play. Disregarding the fighting, civilians turned out all over the city to give the Americans and British a thunderous ovation. The German rearguards, caught by the speed of the Allied advance from Torre Annunziata, had seized scores of Italians youths, old men and women as hostages and retreated with them into public buildings to fight the Bersaglieri. Civilians took courage from the Bersaglieri, and commandeered all available vehicles which they raced along the streets firing at every German at every German in sight." Yanks Busy With Clearing of Naples, By Herny T. Gorrell, p. 5 Valley Morning Star 3 October 1943
The 'Cremona' and 'Friuli' Divisions also forced 40,000 Germans, including the 91st Panzergrenadier Division to abandon Corsica.
"The Nazis were eventually chased to their bridgehead at Bastia, where, with air support and far superior numbers, they were able to embark for Italy. In total, the liberation of Corsica left 75 French soldiers dead, 245 Italians and around 1,000 Germans." The Resistance: The French Fight Against the Nazis, By Matthew Cobb
"In Corsica, the Cremona and Friuli Divisions, keeping their ranks unbroken and refusing to surrender their arms, joined with the French troops under General Louchet. " The Story of the Italian Resistance, Roberto Battaglia, p. 50, Odhams Press, 1957
The Italians also forced the German 90th Panzergrenadier Division to abandon Sardinia.
"Meanwhile, the Germans were reinforced by the 91st panzergrenadier division which had been driven from Sardinia by the Italians." A New Survey of Universal Knowledge, Harry S. Ashmore, Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1961
"Until the Allies arrived there has been havoc and the city is wrecked as a result of Allied bombing, German demolitions and the pitched battles which Italian regular army Bersaglieri regiments loyal to the King have been fighting with the Germans. When we arrived, there was shooting everywhere. Even six and eight year old boys were shooting, firing abandoned weapons into the air in play. Disregarding the fighting, civilians turned out all over the city to give the Americans and British a thunderous ovation. The German rearguards, caught by the speed of the Allied advance from Torre Annunziata, had seized scores of Italians youths, old men and women as hostages and retreated with them into public buildings to fight the Bersaglieri. Civilians took courage from the Bersaglieri, and commandeered all available vehicles which they raced along the streets firing at every German at every German in sight." Yanks Busy With Clearing of Naples, By Herny T. Gorrell, p. 5 Valley Morning Star 3 October 1943
The 'Cremona' and 'Friuli' Divisions also forced 40,000 Germans, including the 91st Panzergrenadier Division to abandon Corsica.
"The Nazis were eventually chased to their bridgehead at Bastia, where, with air support and far superior numbers, they were able to embark for Italy. In total, the liberation of Corsica left 75 French soldiers dead, 245 Italians and around 1,000 Germans." The Resistance: The French Fight Against the Nazis, By Matthew Cobb
"In Corsica, the Cremona and Friuli Divisions, keeping their ranks unbroken and refusing to surrender their arms, joined with the French troops under General Louchet. " The Story of the Italian Resistance, Roberto Battaglia, p. 50, Odhams Press, 1957
The Italians also forced the German 90th Panzergrenadier Division to abandon Sardinia.
"Meanwhile, the Germans were reinforced by the 91st panzergrenadier division which had been driven from Sardinia by the Italians." A New Survey of Universal Knowledge, Harry S. Ashmore, Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1961
-
Sid Guttridge
- Member
- Posts: 10162
- Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19
Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting
The Germans had to abandon Corsica as they could neither command the sea nor air around it.
This lack of sea and air control owed absolutely nothing to Italian intervention and everything to the massive Allied naval and air presence that threatened to isolate them.
Another way to look at it is that 80,000 Italian occupation troops failed to prevent the successful withdrawal of 12,000 isolated Germans despite overwhelming Allied naval and aerial superiority!
Cheers,
Sid.
This lack of sea and air control owed absolutely nothing to Italian intervention and everything to the massive Allied naval and air presence that threatened to isolate them.
Another way to look at it is that 80,000 Italian occupation troops failed to prevent the successful withdrawal of 12,000 isolated Germans despite overwhelming Allied naval and aerial superiority!
Cheers,
Sid.
Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting
Sid Guttridge wrote: Another way to look at it is that 80,000 Italian occupation troops failed to prevent the successful withdrawal of 12,000 isolated Germans despite overwhelming Allied naval and aerial superiority!
That's one way, heh, 80k? I wonder how many were even told what was going on.
I think you can find 101 Italian wins if you take the whole of 1940-45 and divide it into land-sea-air categories so that we can comb through it a little easier.
And lets trim the fat. In Italian submarine hitting something with torpedoes isn't a victory. An anomaly perhaps, but I think Monthly totals of tonnage would be a fair assessment.
The Italians did win battles, they would never have made it to late 1943 if they had not, and none would have carried on the fight after that on the RSI side if they could only expect defeat.
But, how about listing what the Allies themselves would call a win if they themselves doing the fighting. Sound like a plan?
Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting
The number of Germans was eventually increased to 30,000. As for the 85,000 Italians on the island, they weren't all available for combat and many units were either nowhere near the fighting or decided it would be dishonorable to fight against their former allies. Others joined the Germans. There were some allied bombings but no overwhelming aerial supremacy. There were also a couple notable Italian naval victories against the Germans around Bastia. Numerically the Italians and their partisan allies (and later Goumiers and free French) outnumbered the Germans but it wasn't the big advantage it appears on paper.
Dan
Dan
-
Sid Guttridge
- Member
- Posts: 10162
- Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19
Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting
Hi Guys,
It is worth repeating what I wsrote earlier:
"While I am all in favour of a reasonable rehabilitation of Italy's military reputation, let's not get too carried away."
There is a desperate sense of wish-fulfillment in some of these claimed Italian "victories". Corsica is one such. (Thinks: If we are going to lower the qualificatrion level for an Italian "victory" so low, why not also claim the original occupation of the island as a "victory" as well?
The Italians achieved only one offensive victory entirely of their own in WWII: the conquest of British Somaliland.
The Italians also stood off some Allied attacks without German support, but never a major Allied offensive.
The limited Italian successes were unsurprising, given the often poor higher leadership and limited modern equipment.
Many Italians fought bravely and with success and the British have consistently downplayed this until recently, but British downplaying does not rehabilitate the Italian Army, in particular, as a generally an effective force.
It would be better to explain Italian limitations than pursue a list of often lame claimed "victories".
Cheers,
Sid.
It is worth repeating what I wsrote earlier:
"While I am all in favour of a reasonable rehabilitation of Italy's military reputation, let's not get too carried away."
There is a desperate sense of wish-fulfillment in some of these claimed Italian "victories". Corsica is one such. (Thinks: If we are going to lower the qualificatrion level for an Italian "victory" so low, why not also claim the original occupation of the island as a "victory" as well?
The Italians achieved only one offensive victory entirely of their own in WWII: the conquest of British Somaliland.
The Italians also stood off some Allied attacks without German support, but never a major Allied offensive.
The limited Italian successes were unsurprising, given the often poor higher leadership and limited modern equipment.
Many Italians fought bravely and with success and the British have consistently downplayed this until recently, but British downplaying does not rehabilitate the Italian Army, in particular, as a generally an effective force.
It would be better to explain Italian limitations than pursue a list of often lame claimed "victories".
Cheers,
Sid.
Re: 101 Italian WW2 victories & counting
Hi Sid,
I agree, most of the "victories" in the list are part of the ebb and flow of combat and not in any way decisive. The Germans and individual allied countries probably had thousands such victories. I was not attempting to defend the list but rather correcting what I thought was an unfair description of what happened on Corsica.
Regards,
Dan
I agree, most of the "victories" in the list are part of the ebb and flow of combat and not in any way decisive. The Germans and individual allied countries probably had thousands such victories. I was not attempting to defend the list but rather correcting what I thought was an unfair description of what happened on Corsica.
Regards,
Dan