Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

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David W
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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#61

Post by David W » 05 Feb 2012, 02:27

Thanks.

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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#62

Post by dor1941 » 07 Feb 2012, 18:44

jwsleser wrote: In terms of A.S. it is clear that none of the divisions selected for conversion to divisione occupazione were actually converted. This is the case with Sabratha. It was planned to convert the division, but it was never done. Arturo mentioned to me in an e-mail that I likely need to better emphasize that these were planned organizations that were rarely achieved. In fact, while translating the bit about the Pistoia as a tipo moto it has become clear that none of the planned 1941 organizations were implemented.
Jeff
Not so fast-the organization of D.f. Bologna and Pavia were 'implemented'-the presence of the btg armi d'accomp. in those two divisions clearly indicate the Comando Supremo was attempting to implement the 'divisione motorizzata' plan in late 1941, but with limited results.

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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#63

Post by Urmel » 07 Feb 2016, 11:03

For September 41 I have the following organisation for Bologna, not all of which was present:

1x Divisional staff Staff with car section
1x m/c messenger platoon (Naples)
1x Infantry Command
2x infantry regiment with each 2x infantry battalion with each 3x rifle coys and 1x AT coy, and one support battalion with 1x each mortar, AT gun, AT rifle, AA companies.
1x divisional weapons battalion (AA (in Naples) /AT/mortars)
1x light tank company with 13 tanks
1x Artillery Regiment
2x each 100mm (one in Naples) and 75mm battalions
1x mixed battalion with 75mm (in Naples) and AA 20mm
1x medical services (dentist in Naples), mixed motorised
1x engineers/signals with 1x specialist engineers and 1x mixed phone/radio signals coy
1x administrative services with two subsections (bakery, commissary, both mixed motorised)
1x mail services (motorised)
1x police services (motorised)
1x supply services with 1x each workshops, maintenance, truck column (all motorised, all in Naples)

I have no idea which structure this corresponded to. Pavia was the same.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#64

Post by David W » 07 Feb 2016, 15:33

Hi Urmel.

Was the above the first organisational re-structure for Bologna since the re-constituting in April 1939 in Bir El Gnem?

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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#65

Post by Urmel » 07 Feb 2016, 18:30

Afraid I have no idea.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#66

Post by jwsleser » 07 Feb 2016, 18:35

Andreas

What is your source for this info?

The Bologna organization you posted appears to be the divisione motorizzata A.S. Adopted in May 1941, the FF.AA. A.S. requested the necessary material in June 41. The first priority was to transition the X Army Corps: D. cor. Ariete and the D. mot. Trento, Pavia, and Bologna. The transition of these units was never completed. Note that the light tank company is not part of the motorizzata A.S. organization. If present, I am assuming that FF.AA. A.S. was trying to do something with the CV type tanks that remained in A.S.

See my article on the A.S. organizations on Comando Supremo.

David

This would be the second change to the division’s TO&E. Bologna wasn’t transferred to A.S. until Sep-Oct 1939. The unit was reorganized as the 25a divisione fanteria « Bologna » on 27 April 1939 at Napoli. When transferred to A.S., it was reorganized as a divisione autotrasportabile di fanteria tipo A.S. See L'Esercito e i suoi Corpi, vol. 3, tomo 1, l’esercito italiano tra la 1° e la 2° guerra Mondiale, and La Preparazione al conflicto l’avavzata su Sidi el Barrani. There is very little differences between the two types of divisions; replaced draft animals with trucks, adding a depot unit and tank battalion, and few other small changes.

Pista! Jeff
Last edited by jwsleser on 07 Feb 2016, 18:48, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#67

Post by Urmel » 07 Feb 2016, 18:38

Jeff

It's the OOB/TO&E info from Panzergruppe for the divisions under its command at the start of CRUSADER.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#68

Post by jwsleser » 07 Feb 2016, 18:40

So this info is from a primary document? Pista! Jeff
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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#69

Post by Urmel » 07 Feb 2016, 18:52

Yes, German.

I have just looked through my XXI C.A. files, which are a bit less detailed, but closer to the November date:

Infantry
39 Infantry Regiment with 2x rifle battalion and 1x AA/AT battalion
40 Infantry Regiment with 2x rifle battalion and III./40 with 1 platoon each of 20mm, 81mm mortar, mortar (?), and 47/32
?XV battalion AA/AT

Artillery
I Gruppo 3 batteries 100/17
III Gruppo 3 batteries 75/27
IV Gruppo as III Gruppo

17th Mixed Battalion Engineers

Services 2x O.c., 1 medical section, 1 Autosezione, 1 n.ch. (abbreviations as in document)

Attached:

1 Gruppo 105/28 from 24th of C.A.
1 company XXXI Guastatori (this places the status of the division between early and mid November 41)
1 battery of 20mm from Brescia
1 company Artieri from Sabratha
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#70

Post by David W » 07 Feb 2016, 20:31

Thanks both.

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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#71

Post by David W » 07 Feb 2016, 20:46

Urmel.

In your XXI C.A files does it state whether III/39 was 20/65 or 47/32 & 20/65.
Also I have no record of the XV Battaglione AA/AT. I see you have it as ?

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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#72

Post by Urmel » 07 Feb 2016, 20:54

The ? refers to the first Roman numeral out of three being unreadable.

The Italian records don't say about III/39. The German says 8x47, 8x20, 9x81mm mortar and 12x ATR.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#73

Post by David W » 07 Feb 2016, 20:59

In that case it is almost certainly an "X" that is missing as Bologna were XXV Divisione. However, I still have not heard of a XXV Battaglione AT/AA so it is very interesting.

Thank you for the German composition of III/39.

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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#74

Post by Urmel » 08 Feb 2016, 07:48

It could simply be that it was formed and lost so quickly it never really made the paperwork. The Germans also have that number as 25, but I don't trust their numbering 100%. E.g. they have I/205 and II/205 as the 75mm battalions, and III/ and IV/ as the 100mm battalions, while the Italians have it the other way round.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#75

Post by David W » 08 Feb 2016, 08:40

I'm not disagreeing with your theory that it was formed and destroyed too quickly, but surely there would be paperwork records of it having been sent to N. Africa from Italy?
Or are you implying that it was formed in N.Africa from existing guns and personnel?

As for the numbering of the Artillery units, one normally sees the 75/27 listed before the 100/17. But in my records I show it the other way round in 205 Regiment, as in the Italian document you quote from.

Regards,
David.

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