3. Panzergrenadier-Division against Ariete II

[Marcus]

Has anyone got any information on the fighting between 3. Panzergrenadier-Division and the Italian 135. Armored Divison Ariete II near Rome following the armistice in September 1943?
Thanks.

/Marcus

[Peter H]

Marcus

Very little fighting if this link is true:

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quart ... itawoc.htm

Sept. 8, 1943 (afternoon) : Gen. Eisenhower, disappointed for the Italian High Command behaviour, takes its decision to make public the armistice with a radio brodcast from Algiers. Gen. Badoglio (the Prime Minister) cannot do other than broadcasting the confirmation of the armistice.

Sept. 8, 1943 (8:30 pm) : The Germans, finally, can do what they always desired to do : adopt with the Italians the same pacification treatment which had made them famous in many European and Asian countries...From Frascati the password "Flohzirkus" (Flea Circus) (sic !) is transmitted and the 2nd Fallschirmjägerdivision moves towards Rome.

Sept. 8 - 9, 1943 (10:00 pm - 05:00 am) : combats and skermishes around Rome. During the night the King, the government, and the top military ranks flee from Rome to Pescara. The CAM armored units (Ariete II, Centauro II, and Piave) are transferred to Tivoli (about 20 miles from Rome) where remain idle.

Sept. 9, 1943 (05:00 am - 09:00 pm) : the Germans come nearer and nearer, while the 3 armored division are resting in Tivoli, the last Italian garrison (i.e.: the survivors of the Granatieri di Sardegna and Montebello divisions, of the 4th Tank Regiment, and other sundry units) although left alone, with no orders, and lacking supplies, still oppose against the German divisions in the southern part of Rome.

Sept. 9 - 10, 1943 (09:00 pm - 12:00 pm) : during the early hours of Sept.10 the German Kampfgruppen move their final attack against the Italian defenders. All the M13 of the 4th Tank Regiment as well as the SP gun 75/18of the "Sassari" division are immobilized.
In the same time, the three armored divisions are still "CAM...ping" around Tivoli !

Sept.10, 1943 (03:00 pm] : At 3:00 pm the Ariete division Command bravely orders to move towards Rome and attack the Germans.
Quite a wise and timely decision ... provided that few minutes before, in Frascati, the Italian troops had officially surrendered to the "new enemies" !

However this link mentions a skirmish between Kampfgruppe Grosser of the 3. Panzergrenadier Division and elements of the 135th:

http://digilander.libero.it/lacorsainfi ... lleria.htm

Rough translation:

"Monterosi 9th September--the Regiment Cavalrymen of Lucca and the III Group of the 135° Regiment Artillery SPs held back the German Gruppe that was not in a position to continue attacking for the rest of the day. Italian losses were 20 men and 4 tanks.German losses were similar."


Regards
Peter

[RolandP]

Hi, I found only this in my files:
26.07.1943
Im Gegenzug zum deutschen „Unternehmen Alarich“, Aufmarsch an den ital.Grenzen nach der Absetzung des Duce, wurde die 135.“Ariete II“ mit 5 weiteren Divisionen, darunter die 131.“Centauro II“, unter dem Befehl von General Carboni in den Raum um Rom verlegt.

01.08.1943
Ostwärts des Tibers um Tivoli lagen die „Miliz-Panzer-Division“ und die verstärkte Division „Ariete“

08.09.1943
Im Raum Rom lag das Ital.Motorisierte Panzer-Korps, General Giacomo Carboni

09.09.1943
Nach der deutschen Luftlandung am Monte Rotundo, gegen das ital.Hauptquartier, rollte eine Panzer-Division („Ariete“) aus dem Raum Rom in Richtung Rotundo. Bei Viterbo stießen Verbände der 3.dt. PzGrenDiv auf Teile der „Ariete“, bis Ende des Tages werden die Italiener auf den Lago di Bracciano gedrückt.

10.09.1943
General Raffaele Cadorna, Kommandeur der 135.“Ariete“, weigerte sich, seine Division ohne schriftlichen Befehl gegen die deutschen Verbände einzusetzen.
Um 15:30 Uhr erfolgte die Kapitulation des ital.Mot.Panzer-Korps mit u.a. den Div.“Centauro“ und „Ariete“. Die Divisionen wurden aufgelöst und die Mannschaften in ihre Heimatstädte entlassen.

Regards Roland

[Lupo Solitario]

a traslation would be kind...

[luigi]

Hi, I found only this in my files:
26.07.1943
Im Gegenzug zum deutschen „Unternehmen Alarich“, Aufmarsch an den ital.Grenzen nach der Absetzung des Duce, wurde die 135.“Ariete II“ mit 5 weiteren Divisionen, darunter die 131.“Centauro II“, unter dem Befehl von General Carboni in den Raum um Rom verlegt.

In a move against "Operation Alarich", the move against Italian borders after the Duce being overtrown, the 135. ArieteII division was transferred in the Rome area togheter with other 5 Division, among which the Centauro division under command of Gen. Carboni.

01.08.1943
Ostwärts des Tibers um Tivoli lagen die „Miliz-Panzer-Division“ und die verstärkte Division „Ariete“
West-side of the tiber there lay the "Miliz-Panzer-Division" and the upgraded (rinforzata, reinforced?) Ariete Division

08.09.1943
Im Raum Rom lag das Ital.Motorisierte Panzer-Korps, General Giacomo Carboni
In Rome area was the Ital. motorized armoured Corp, Gen. Giacomo Carboni

09.09.1943
Nach der deutschen Luftlandung am Monte Rotundo, gegen das ital.Hauptquartier, rollte eine Panzer-Division („Ariete“) aus dem Raum Rom in Richtung Rotundo. Bei Viterbo stießen Verbände der 3. dt. Pz.Gren.Div. auf Teile der „Ariete“, bis Ende des Tages werden die Italiener auf den Lago di Bracciano gedrückt.
After the German airborne landing at Monte Rotondo against the Italian HQ, an armoured division (Ariete) moved from the Tivoli area in direction Monte Rotondo. Near Viterbo elements of the 3. Panzer-Grenadier-Div. made contact with parts of the Ariete. UNtil end of the day the Italian are pushed to the Bracciano Lake area.

10.09.1943
General Raffaele Cadorna, Kommandeur der 135.“Ariete“, weigerte sich, seine Division ohne schriftlichen Befehl gegen die deutschen Verbände einzusetzen.
Um 15:30 Uhr erfolgte die Kapitulation des ital.Mot.Panzer-Korps mit u.a. den Div. “Centauro“ und „Ariete“. Die Divisionen wurden aufgelöst und die Mannschaften in ihre Heimatstädte entlassen.
Gen. Raffaele Cadorna, head of 135. Ariete refused to engage his division against the Germans without written order. At 15:30 the ital. Mot-panzer Corp capitulates, among them Centauro and Ariete Division and personnel set free to return home.

Regards Roland

Translation could be better, but my English is worse than my German )

From these information i wonder where exactly Ariete Division was located since Tivoli and Viterbo are really very far apart and how came that parts of Ariete converged on Monterotondo (or tried to) both from Tivoli and from Viterbo while its commanding General refused to commit his division against the Germans? Were the movements of troops made out of personal initiative from the lower ranking officers?

[Lupo Solitario]

I got the Cadorna memories and I hope having time to traslate them in english. They include maps, too

[Marcus]

Thanks everyone.

/Marcus

[enorepap]

Not a very easy fight for the germans. Sergeant Udino BOMPIERI of the Lancieri di Vittorio Emanuele II" rgt, who died near Bracciano on september, 9, 1943 during a fight between german tanks and italian self-propelled guns, was awarded (post-mortem) the gold medal for miltary valour.

[Alexderome]

But in fact, it's very difficult to know the losses of the 3. Pz.Gren.Div. and the oponents the Cavalleggeri di Lucca at Monterosi and Manziana.
Do someone know them ?
I have red also that a colonello Rabbi killed himself, refusing to fight againts the German : http://www.controstoria.it/otto-settembre-1943.html
I can't find any info about this colonello ? Maybe colonello Guido Raby, comanding the Lancieri di Vittorio Emanuelle II ?

ALEX

[jwsleser]

This information is taken from Le operazioni delle unità italiane nell settembre-ottobre 1943.

Monterosi
Cavalleggeri di Lucca – 20 dead, 50 wounded, 4 tanks lost
3rd PzGdr – grave losses.

Ponte di Pertichinanti
3rd PzGdr – 15 dead (from a mine)

Just west of Nepi:
Ariete – 7 dead, 1 wounded
3rd PzGdr – 40 dead

Manziana
Ariete – 15 dead, 60 wounded, 10 tanks lost
3rd PzGdr – 100 dead, 20 armored vehicles and many trucks lost.

Pista! Jeff

[Alexderome]

Thanks Jeff
The german losses are heavy, at Manziana, a Kampfgruppe was stopped by the 'Lancieri di Vittorio Emmanuele II'.
ALEX