Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

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dor1941
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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#46

Post by dor1941 » 25 Jan 2012, 15:43

arturolorioli wrote:
jwsleser wrote: Number 3 is certainly correct.
Possibly, even if I would be tempted to opt for #2, i.e. the use of term "da occupazione" in a generic term (i.e. something like "second-line", "not-mobile") and not with the intention to indicate a specific "regulation" TO&E. From what can I see the Pistoia in NA did have a normal artillery allocation, no blackshirts, no extra Carabinieri or MMG units, etc, so none of the "da occupazione" fittings. But at the beginning of its NA history, it was actually used for rear-area duties.
Number 3 is correct for Divisione Pistoia. However, we should note that in the same paragraph he also refers to Sabratha as "d'occupazione", which suggests that-to Montanari at least-a broader definition of the word (as applied in 1941) is appropriate.
I noted that on the previous page (p. 268) Montanari states:
"La divisione d'occupazione doveva resultare costituita da:
due reggimenti di fanteria, ciascuno su tre battaglioni;
un battaglione mitraglieri;
un battaglione controcarri;
un reggimento d'artiglieria, su due gruppi da 100/17, due da 75/27 ed uno contraerei;
un battaglione genio;
servizi"
Even by his own definition, this structure does not relate to Sabratha anytime in 1941 after Beda Fomm. Even in November it only had four btg fanteria, with no btg mitraglieri or controcarri and only two G.a.f. gruppi for its artillery. Yet Montanari uses the term for both divisions. Consequently your explanation #2 might more accurately describe his view of a "divisione d'occupazione" at that time.

David R

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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#47

Post by arturolorioli » 25 Jan 2012, 16:22

dor1941 wrote:. Consequently your explanation #2 might more accurately describe his view of a "divisione d'occupazione" at that time.
Yep, I suppose it's likely . Anyway, any other factor aside, is quite clear by now that the "da occupazione" term is used just in a generic sense, and it is not a reference to the "series 150" divisioni da occupazione.

From what I can see, the only real qualifying difference from the oter AS divisions was (probably) lack of motor transports, and (possibly) a reduced allocation of HWs to the rifle company when compared to the Mod.42AS one.
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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#48

Post by David W » 26 Jan 2012, 02:00

The latter two.

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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#49

Post by jwsleser » 26 Jan 2012, 15:40

I guess I am going to be the one that pleasantly disagrees :-) Of course, this is a minor point and my comments just for thought.

The divisione occupazione is a real organization, not some generic term for a second rate unit. I find the usage in the sources as specific and not used to describe a role but an organization. This division is mention in several USSME sources as a division-type that was created during the war.

In terms of A.S. it is clear that none of the divisions selected for conversion to divisione occupazione were actually converted. This is the case with Sabratha. It was planned to convert the division, but it was never done. Arturo mentioned to me in an e-mail that I likely need to better emphasize that these were planned organizations that were rarely achieved. In fact, while translating the bit about the Pistoia as a tipo moto it has become clear that none of the planned 1941 organizations were implemented. The closest was Ariete, while the two moto twins (Trieste and Trento) didn’t change at all. The combats in the summer, losses at sea and the preparation for the assault on Tobruk prevented gathering the needed material and stand-down of any of the forces for the transition. Work on the tipo A.S. 42 was started in September and pretty much finalized by December. At that point the 1941 plan was had been taken over by events.

I will be adjusting the article based on these discussions. My original intent was to keep the article focused on the planned. I now appears that I will need to address the actual to some degree. That is okay. I also plan to add the Libyan and MVSN divisions to the 1940 mix (while technically not A.S. by classification, they were unique to A.S.), Giovanni Fascisti and those unique formations in 43. This will expand the article to more than the tipo A.S. formations.

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Jeff
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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#50

Post by David W » 26 Jan 2012, 17:38

Excellent Jeff. I shall eagerly await your next installment.

Are you saying that neither Sabratha nor Pistoia were EVER occupazzione?

How do we explain the Sabratha anomoly of just two Battalions per Regiment?

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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#51

Post by arturolorioli » 26 Jan 2012, 18:10

jwsleser wrote:The divisione occupazione is a real organization, not some generic term for a second rate unit. I find the usage in the sources as specific and not used to describe a role but an organization. This division is mention in several USSME sources as a division-type that was created during the war.
Jeff, maybe we have a misunderstanding here (my fault, of course).

I 'm perfectly aware that there was an official TO&E for the divisioni "da occupazione", i.e. for the so-called "series 150" divisions that served mostly in the balkans, but from what I can see it have nothing in common with the Sabratha or the Pistoia.

So either there was a specific "da occupazione" TO&E for North Africa (something like a "da occupazione A.S."), but I've never ever found it listed anywhere, or the term was loosely used to indicate a provisional reduced efficency situation pending the availability of sufficent hardware to fit the two divisions to full operational status.

In the first case, there should be something like a "Formazioni provvisorie di Guerra per divisione da occupazione tipo A.S." (or something like that) somewhere. Of course it is possible that such document exists, but I've never seen it neither I've ever even heard about it, so if anybody have it, please share, and I'll be absolutely delighted to learn something new.

Pending this documental evidence about the existance of a specific North Africa "da occupazione" TO&E different from the normal "series 150" one, I have *assumed* (pure and simple educated guessing) that the term could have been possibly used in the specific Norh Africa context in a more function-oriented way, to differentiate between the "fully-operational" units and units undergoing a major rebuilding/refeitting and unlikely to be ready for quite a long time due to shortages in manpower and/or hardware (as the Sabratha and Pistoia), without any reference to the "regular" series-150 da occupazione TO&E.
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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#52

Post by jwsleser » 26 Jan 2012, 18:17

David W.

RE: Pistoia. AFAIK tell, never converted. Since the divison was in Italy at this time, there are few sources we can look at to determine whether anything was done.

RE: Sabratha. Now the focus of research. I will start at June 40 to see what happened with this division.

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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#53

Post by David W » 26 Jan 2012, 18:27

Thank you.

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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#54

Post by jwsleser » 02 Feb 2012, 18:55

Arturo
So either there was a specific "da occupazione" TO&E for North Africa (something like a "da occupazione A.S."), but I've never ever found it listed anywhere, or the term was loosely used to indicate a provisional reduced efficency situation pending the availability of sufficent hardware to fit the two divisions to full operational status.
I would now agree. After reading Montanari (page 216) it appears the divisione d'occupazione A.S. is only a division that wouldn’t be motorized. It would have trucks for its artillery and required services (e.g. autotrasportabile in all but name).

From David’s post
Actually Montanari does identify a tenative proposal to include Pistoia among a group of new motorized divisions in mid-1941. A chart entitled "Programma per l'ipotesi 'Armata D'Africa' " (l'ipotesi=hypothesis?) on page 220 (2nd Ed.) lists Pistoia along with Trento, Trieste, Piave, Pasubio and Torino as "divisione motorizzate". Another group of 10 divisions-including Pavia, Brescia, Bologna and Savona, those in North Africa at the time-would be classed as "coloniali autotrasportabile".
April/May Mussolini was discussing a grand plan that would involve not only sweeping east to conquer Egypt and Palestine, but west to overrun French North Africa. The anticipated forces for this plan (the Army of Egypt and the Army of Africa) are the twenty divisions listed by Montanari. Montanari addresses the S.M. study of the required trucks. The Army of Egypt wouldn’t have the needed trucks until Dec 41, the Army of Africa not until autumn of 42 (and only after taking 10,000 trucks from the Army of Egypt). Few were convinced by this plan, and the decision to send Italian troops to Russia ended any serious planning. Per the 1 September decision, Pistoia was to be a divisione d'occupazione, but that was in reality a tipo autotrasportabile.

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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#55

Post by Dili » 03 Feb 2012, 00:10

Was the Pistoia artillery scaled down?

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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#56

Post by David W » 03 Feb 2012, 09:25

I Gr. 12x 75/27.
II Gr. 12x 75/27.
III Gr. 12x 100/17.

Later in 1942 I have a fourth Gruppo, but not sure if just guns to replace losses, gun type unknown. And 2x Compagnia c.a with 8x 20/65 each.

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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#57

Post by jwsleser » 03 Feb 2012, 16:21

David

I don't have the book with me (Treza offensiva), but I looked at Pistoia last night. IIRC, I and II were 100/17 and III and IV were 75/27. This organzation is in-line with the A.S. 42 authorization. That OB was from 1 December 42. Arturo has a copy and might check this info for me (it is an OB in the allegati) or I will check it again tonight.

What date and source for your information?

Dili

All my information has Pistoia as an A.S. 42 division when it arrived in A.S. It appears the 88/52 gruppo was not assigned, as I have not found this unit. I assume this was due to a lack of guns.

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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#58

Post by jwsleser » 04 Feb 2012, 02:41

Pistoia Artillery.

The OB on 1 December lists:

I and II gruppi with 100/17.

III and IV gruppi with 75/27.

This is from allegato 36 in Terza offensiva bitannica in A.S.. This matches the authorized artillery structure for a A.S. 42 division.

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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#59

Post by David W » 04 Feb 2012, 03:03

Jeff.

Late July or early August 1942. Need to check the source.

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Re: Pistoia Division at Halfaya Pass November 1942

#60

Post by jwsleser » 04 Feb 2012, 17:09

David

Montanari's Volume III (El Alamein) states the Pistoia on 29 August had the 35th regg. (with all three btg.), elements of the 36th and one artillery gruppo. (page 568 and fn. 68). If you have a copy of Three Battles (the English translation) this is found on page 245. Note that the second sentence of the English verison footnote has a wonky translation. The original Italian is:
Per il momento erano giunti il 35° fanteria su tre battaglioni, elementi del 36° fanteria ed un gruppo d'artiglieria.
As you can read, the designation of the gruppo is not given. The division was in the Agedabia-Gialo area at this time.

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