Why did the Italian goverment collapse so easily?

Discussions on all aspects of Italy under Fascism from the March on Rome to the end of the war.
CJK1990
Member
Posts: 350
Joined: 10 Apr 2010, 21:15

Why did the Italian goverment collapse so easily?

#1

Post by CJK1990 » 21 Jun 2012, 23:10

I just don't understand why Mussolini and the fascists tolerated all these treacherous elements (in the monarchy, the Fascist Grand Council, the High Command of the Italian army) and did so little to shield the regime from a coup, especially given the desperate circumstances. Or failing that, at least try to stop the coup when it began.

Trackhead M2
Member
Posts: 1004
Joined: 24 Mar 2012, 17:48
Location: North Utica, IL

Re: Why did the Italian goverment collapse so easily?

#2

Post by Trackhead M2 » 21 Jun 2012, 23:21

CJK1990 wrote:I just don't understand why Mussolini and the fascists tolerated all these treacherous elements (in the monarchy, the Fascist Grand Council, the High Command of the Italian army) and did so little to shield the regime from a coup, especially given the desperate circumstances. Or failing that, at least try to stop the coup when it began.
Dear CJK,
I guess you think because the Fascisti wore snappy Black Uniforms they had the determination of the SS or Gestapo. It is unfortunately all too clear that the Fascists were not all their press cracked them up to be. There were some who would try to out NAZI the NAZIs but by and large they were still trying to be aristocrats and not too motivated.
Strike Swiflty,
TH-M2


User avatar
waldzee
Banned
Posts: 1422
Joined: 03 Feb 2012, 04:44
Location: Calgary Alberta

Treacherous to who?

#3

Post by waldzee » 21 Jun 2012, 23:36

Italy was a constitional monarchy. King victor Emmanuel had the AUTHORITY to order Musso's booting.

User avatar
DrG
Member
Posts: 1408
Joined: 21 Oct 2003, 23:23
Location: Italia

Re: Why did the Italian goverment collapse so easily?

#4

Post by DrG » 21 Jun 2012, 23:39

The fall of Mussolini's govern was the result of a fracture within the Fascist Party itself. During the night of 24-25 July 1943 the Grand Council of Fascism voted a motion that exonerated Mussolini from the high command of the Armed Forces, inviting the King to regain his constitutional powers.
In the afternoon of 25 July Mussolini went to Villa Savoia (residence of King Victor Emmanuel III) and was dismissed from his role of prime minister. Then he was put under custody, officially to protect him. It was only after a while that Mussolini himself understood that gen. Ambrosio (chief of Comando Supremo) and marshal Badoglio had kidnapped and arrested him indeed. Before realizing this, Mussolini even wrote a letter to Badoglio promising his help to his govern if needed.
It seems that the King had been strongly suggested, if not actually forced, to act in this way by the Duke of Acquarone, Minister of the Royal House, Ambrosio and Badoglio.
The members of the Fascist Grand Council did not understand, at first, that the generals were going to form a new govern composed only of technicians, without any Fascist minister, and that they would have dissolved the Fascist Party. Some of them (chiefly Ciano and Grandi) believed they would have become members of the new govern, or at least would have been able to advise it.
By the time that the military coup by the Army became apparent in its full aims, the Fascist party and its militias had already been disbanded or absorbed (the Blackshirst were merely included in the Army, changing the fasces on their collars with the usual stars worn by soldiers), everything by order of the King (to whom, and not to Mussolini, every Italian soldier and militiaman had sworn his allegiance).

Guido

Carl Schwamberger
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 10056
Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 21:31
Location: USA

Re: Why did the Italian goverment collapse so easily?

#5

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 22 Jun 2012, 00:35

DrG wrote:The fall of Mussolini's govern was the result of a fracture within the Fascist Party itself. ....
Reading through the books it sometimes sounds like the split in the Facist Party was Mussolini vs everyone else in the party :lol:

CJK1990
Member
Posts: 350
Joined: 10 Apr 2010, 21:15

Re: Why did the Italian goverment collapse so easily?

#6

Post by CJK1990 » 22 Jun 2012, 01:18

Why didn't they crack down on the monarchy, or failing that at least put the King under heavy surveillance? It's not like the King wasn't dropping any hints, or that he could simply be trusted, no questions asked. Also, Mussolini put up with Ambrosio in spite of the fact that a) he didn't want the job b) he was known to be strongly anti-German even though his job was to cooperate with the Germans and c) he personally demanded Mussolini to break the alliance with Germany. And why even bother with the Grand Council nonsense in the first place? It's just unbelievable how little effort there was to crack down on all the treason going on.

CJK1990
Member
Posts: 350
Joined: 10 Apr 2010, 21:15

Re: Why did the Italian goverment collapse so easily?

#7

Post by CJK1990 » 22 Jun 2012, 01:30

And yes, the King technically could dismiss Mussolini but I'm pretty sure that after 21 of fascist rule he would have been rather hesitant to exercise that "right" absent other support.

Dili
Member
Posts: 2201
Joined: 24 Jun 2007, 23:54
Location: Lusitania

Re: Why did the Italian goverment collapse so easily?

#8

Post by Dili » 22 Jun 2012, 04:12

Why didn't they crack down on the monarchy
Because Mussolini was a tolerated dictator, he didn't had all power even inside Fascist party. From Balbo to Ciano everyone had their own game, and in Italy there are many power fiefdoms. And when i say own game i mean they could say publicly they were against "Il Duce". Balbo is reported to get some Jew friends to a very public launch just after the racial laws were implemented. Ciano which was connect to Mussolini family criticized jokingly Mussolini to have a mistress and when journalists pointed the hypocrisy Ciano said that the problem was to have only one...
Besides the Fascist struggles the Monarchists could count on almost all Navy and a sizable part of the Army.
Sometimes he only got away because the others hesitated.
First of all Mussolini entered the war thinking that around September 1940 at most everyone will be at a table splitting Europe. The army had several doubts about the war. But no one made a real stand. Everyone dragged their feet, because no one believed in War. When Mussolini turned a drag to the survival of the Monarchy and his health also got worse along the war -probably contributing the death of his son in a bomber plane test- the Fascist Council dropped him.

User avatar
waldzee
Banned
Posts: 1422
Joined: 03 Feb 2012, 04:44
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: Why did the Italian goverment collapse so easily?

#9

Post by waldzee » 22 Jun 2012, 04:14

He was a http://libraries.ucsd.edu/speccoll/dswe ... bb6929210m boom to cartoonists...
http://libraries.ucsd.edu/speccoll/dswe ... bb13318867

However, Mussolini was a 'disaster to Italy'. A neutral Italy , by 1945 would have been the 'tiger of Europe'.
az cany man- but badly flawed. Italians knew it by 1943.
By switching sides they won the second world war. a consolation prize.. :lol:

Tons of Musso cartoons here: http://libraries.ucsd.edu/speccoll/dswe ... bb6929210m

Carl Schwamberger
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 10056
Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 21:31
Location: USA

Re: Why did the Italian goverment collapse so easily?

#10

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 22 Jun 2012, 12:41

CJK1990 wrote:Why didn't they crack down on the monarchy, or failing that at least put the King under heavy surveillance? It's not like the King wasn't dropping any hints, or that he could simply be trusted, no questions asked. Also, Mussolini put up with Ambrosio in spite of the fact that a) he didn't want the job b) he was known to be strongly anti-German even though his job was to cooperate with the Germans and c) he personally demanded Mussolini to break the alliance with Germany. And why even bother with the Grand Council nonsense in the first place? It's just unbelievable how little effort there was to crack down on all the treason going on.
In part because Mussolini never formed a police organization of the same caliber as the German Gestapo or the Soviet NKVD. What police activites there were aimed at 'treason' were aimed at suppressing Communists or investigating Allied spies.

The second part was Mussolini was over confident to the point of being delusional. The idea that everyone among the Italian leadership would band together against him was more of less inconcieveable to him. He was taken by suprise and found he had no support anywhere.

The Italians clearly understood the war was rapidly going down hill for them. They were aware of the German defeats in the east, of the failure of the German submarines in the Atlantic, closer to home the Axis armies in Africa had been destroyed, Sicilly had been lost, Allied bombers roved at will over Italy, and the economy was collapsing. Mussolini was the first among a tiny minority of Italians - and Facists, who thought the Axis could still win the war.

User avatar
DrG
Member
Posts: 1408
Joined: 21 Oct 2003, 23:23
Location: Italia

Re: Why did the Italian goverment collapse so easily?

#11

Post by DrG » 22 Jun 2012, 14:35

This idea of a preemptive coup by Mussolini to stop his opposers resurfaces quite often also in Italy, but it doesn't take into account the fact that reality is very complex. What would have Mussolini done? Start a civil war? Note that his govern was always inside legality, such an action would have been a complete reversal of 20 years of experience. Not to talk about the fact that Rome and its hinterland was full of units of the Army that would have crushed any Fascist coup without problems (the history of the reciprocal movements of Militia and Army units around Rome in order, maybe, to prevent a coup and counter coup is told with many details by Enrico Cernuschi in his article "La rivolta dei generali", Storia Militare, nn. 131 and 132, Ago.-Sept. 2004).

About the hopes of victory, Mussolini himself was not confidend in a full victory by the Axis: at the Feltre meeting of 19 July 1943 with Hitler he, after hours and hours of debate, managed to get the promise by the Führer that Germany would have started negotiations for a truce with USSR. This fact is confirmed by Adm. De Courten memoirs, but Gen. Ambrosio told a different story to the King (describing an hopeless Mussolini, unable to reply to Hitler), which was confirmed by Col. Cordero di Montezemolo. This lie, spread in Rome after the Italo-German summit, was the main cause of Mussolini's downfall. Why Ambrosio and his fellow Montezemolo acted in this way is a little mystery: either they didn't believe in Hitler's promise, either they were acting willingly to sabotage a German-Soviet reapprochement (maybe believing that an Anglo-American victory would have been more beneficial to Italy than a German victory mixed with a strong Soviet menace on Europe).
Mussolini, probably, thought that his fellow Fascists and the King would have trusted him more than Ambrosio and Montezemolo, but this was not the case.
Guido

CJK1990
Member
Posts: 350
Joined: 10 Apr 2010, 21:15

Re: Why did the Italian goverment collapse so easily?

#12

Post by CJK1990 » 22 Jun 2012, 22:33

Interesting. Although it still blows my mind that they couldn't figure out how to take some basic precautions. Like keeping a watch on the King and not having an abject defeatist lead the army. Even if the defeatism was fully justified, you want your army to be led by optimists by default and not give advice on political matters. And Mussolini himself agreed to call the Grand Council meeting even though nothing good could have possibly have come of it.

CJK1990
Member
Posts: 350
Joined: 10 Apr 2010, 21:15

Re: Why did the Italian goverment collapse so easily?

#13

Post by CJK1990 » 22 Jun 2012, 23:08

And I'm not sure why the King thought he was going to get away with keeping his thrown by making peace at any price with the Allies. I'm probably in the minority on this but I think the Italian surrender was not military justified, at least at the time. A relatively small German force kept the Allies south of Rome for 9 months and the Allies didn't occupy all of Italy until the very end. If 1,700,000 Italian troops hadn't prematurely surrendered, they probably could have successfully entrenched themselves in defensible mountainous terrain with relatively short supply lines. Their morale might have improved because they would be directly defending the homeland against invaders.

User avatar
DrG
Member
Posts: 1408
Joined: 21 Oct 2003, 23:23
Location: Italia

Re: Why did the Italian goverment collapse so easily?

#14

Post by DrG » 22 Jun 2012, 23:10

Mussolini tapped pratically every telephone of important people in Italy. The book "Il telefonista che spiava il Quirinale" gives an account of how much the Duce was aware of the moves by the Duke of Acquarone (much less about Ambrosio, but the Duke was a member of the conspirators). Probably he underestimated the relevance of the opposition.
Frankly I have got the idea that the King, far from being the chief of the coup, simply accepted the fait accompli and was mislead by Col. Montezemolo when he asked him whether Ambrosio's account of the Feltre summit was true or not. Maybe, if he had asked Adm. De Courten history would have been different. Moreover, the King's closest advisor, the Duke of Acquarone, certainly did as much as possible to move the King towards Ambrosio's positions.
Ambrosio, anyway, was not appointed by free choice of Mussolini: it was customary that the chiefs of staff had to be of the liking of the King. Like Cavallero, Badoglio and Cadorna, Ambrosio came from Monferrato, a small area of Eastern Piedmont which was the birthplace of most of the Italian Army higher officers, a pedegree that, in the King's view, was more than enough to ensure his full loyalty and professionality (quite a wrong idea about both aspects, by the way). Anyway, Ambrosio's opinion of the war was not always stated openly, or it changed during 1943: I recall (I should find the exact source, thus I quote by memory) that he wrote a memo to Mussolini stating that "Italy, even if limited to the Po Valley, will go on fighting to the last" (which is, more or less, what actually happened with the Italian Social Republic, by the way).
About optimistic chiefs of staff: Cavallero was a super-ultra-mega-optimist, probably Mussolini wanted somebody much more realistic than him.
Guido

User avatar
waldzee
Banned
Posts: 1422
Joined: 03 Feb 2012, 04:44
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: Why did the Italian goverment collapse so easily?

#15

Post by waldzee » 23 Jun 2012, 00:10

CJK1990 wrote:And I'm not sure why the King thought he was going to get away with keeping his thrown by making peace at any price with the Allies. I'm probably in the minority on this but I think the Italian surrender was not military justified, at least at the time. A relatively small German force kept the Allies south of Rome for 9 months and the Allies didn't occupy all of Italy until the very end. If 1,700,000 Italian troops hadn't prematurely surrendered, they probably could have successfully entrenched themselves in defensible mountainous terrain with relatively short supply lines. Their morale might have improved because they would be directly defending the homeland against invaders.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
they had the democratic choice of joining Musso's Fascia bastia in the north or calling it a war.
Most of them voted out.

Post Reply

Return to “Italy under Fascism 1922-1945”