Italian Invasion of France,1940

[David Lehmann]

Alpes's Army :
http://france1940.free.fr/oob/alpes.html

Indeed, you are right the French Army was not composed of 85 000 but 175 000 men, I verified but this army was at the same time attacked by Italian and German forces (General's Hoeppner XVIe panzer Korps with about 60 000 men). The Italians had 2 armies with a total of 22 divisions among them 4 alpine divisions (for a total of 312 000 men, 3000 guns) and the german had the 3. PzD as well as infantry divisions coming from the north from the Dijon and Lyon directions.
The French had 6 divisions among them 3 were fortress units + 65 artillery groups and 86 SES as you said. This army had not only to fight on the borders but it was dispersed in the whole Savoie, Dauphiné and Alpes-Maritimes areas and it also had to stop the germans in the Rhône and Isère valleys. Olry formed a combat group (groupement Cartier) of 30 000 men with tanks and artillery and sent them in the Rhône-Isère area to fight against the German forces.
The 18th june the italians tried without succes to take Menton and then the 22nd june they attacked on the whole front (towards the city of Nice and in the following areas : Ubaye, Queyras, Briançonnais, Maurienne, Tarentaise). Finally France had lost the city of Menton, and 800 km2 along the border (with less than 7000 french citizens in it). The italians lost 6000 men wounded or dead and the french 250-300 men.


French mortar in the Alpes.
http://hsgm.free.fr/batailles/alpes.htm




SES team

http://guysylvain.chez.tiscali.fr
http://membres.lycos.fr/diablesbleus/Divers/SES/SES.htm

[Daniel S.]

Very interesting web page about les chasseurs alpins...I found a nice picture of present days French mountain troops.
http://guysylvain.chez.tiscali.fr/index.htm

[Kenshiro]

but there is something I dont understand, how could the Italians manage to breakthroug few places? They didnt have heavy artillery fire and they attack (almust) was improvised while the French keep shelling them with heavy artillery fire, they moved near menton.
Italians shouldn even have been able to gain a millimeter of soil....but they managed to move ahead at few places.
Could that be explainded with the French being demoralized by the German victories in the north? or they was simply bad led?

[JeffreyF]

I seem to recall reading that the RAI wasn't requested to do much tactical support(at least with level bombers) until the 22nd of June at which time bad weather saw most of these missions cancelled anyways. So the frontier troops could not even enjoy a massed softening up campaign by aerial bombardment.

If memory serves in previous discussions it has been discussed that this was an extremely cold June. Several of the intended avenues of advanced were negated by passes being snowed in. The countermanding orders caused such a logistics disarray in equipment that many of the frostbite cases came from Alpini units without their proper equipment. This last was from Lupo iirc. If not please forgive me for abusing your good name.

[Ten. Gianluca Missi]

I was stationed in La Thuile near the Petit Sant Bernard were fierce battles took place during the 1940 campaign .
Please note that italy fought with Alpini that were readily available i.e. Taurinense and Cuneense divisions those stationed on the west front the other divisions participated in a small minority since they were stationed in the east were WWI took place for strategic reasons...untill the pact with Hitler Germany was still our most feared enemy and when Hitler launched its Anschluss with Austria the risk of a confrotation with now neighbouring Germany was serious.

Hence in the 1940 campaign you fnd lots of units of Guardia Alla Frontiera , Carabinieri , Camice Nere ... indeed those readily available to support an attack that fromthe very first hour seemed critical.

Remember that what Clausewitz said was true mainly when looking at the border , the line traced in 1861 was in every aspect favourable to French defendants since unlike any other border was not running through the top of mountains but a few meters lower on the slope facing the Italian side hence any attack had to reach the mountain top first with obvious advantages to defendants that built forts and bunkers on virtually any height facing the front... the Petit SantBernard is surrounded by at least 4 major forts (among those Fort Liberte that was taken by the Italians almost without fight) and a vaste number of bunkers.

Since Italy was not ready for war nobody took care of french tourists coming to Italy in late 30ies and taking pictures of everything with a special interest in our bunkers and defensive positions (taken from the memoirs of Ltn. Nuto Revelli)

By the way today the border is the same as 65 years ago hence I never tried to declare war on France...but I'm working on it...

[Lupo Solitario]

mmm...not to be polemic but at 10 June 1940 italian Army Group West on french border controlled 46 of 58 existing alpini battalions. At the same date there were 1 battalion on swiss border, 5 battalions with 2nd Army on Yugo border, 5 battalions in Albania and 1 battalion in East Africa

[Ten. Gianluca Missi]

mmm... from the Swiss border to sea...

Tridentina (Alpini) not meant as the whole division but battalion strength from 3rd and 4th Regiment
Taurinense (Alpini) 4th regiment "Aosta" plus elements the strength of a Company from the Scuola Militare di Alpinismo from Aosta these were instructors most of them later to become Monte Cervino Battalion ; Guardia alla frontiera stationed there because of the Petit Saint Bernard pass
This was properly known as Corpo d'Armata Alpino part of the 4th Armata together with
Raggruppamento Levanna only one Alpini battalion the 7th Val Cismon

1St Corpo d'Armata no Alpini troops
4th Corpo d'Armata 3th Rgt. Alpini "Susa"
2nd Corpo d'Armata 2nd Rgt. Alpini and 1st Rgt. Alpini
3rd Corpo d'Armata 7th Rgt. and 11th Rgt. Alpini

and that's all considering that the whole front was on the Alps...
anyway for a complete idea of the troops that took part to the operations on the western front ....
Please note that Fanteria da Montagna doesn't mean Alpini...those were units with a better attitude towards mountain operations but without specific training ...

http://utenti.lycos.it/ramius/Militaria ... o_1940.htm

Bye for now
Gian

[zaptiè]

in not true that the border is now the same of before wwII : after the war France annexted the towns of Tenda (Tende in french) and Briga and somesmaller border areas.
On the "Italianità " of Nizza I will remember that also Giuseppe Garibaldi was born here and never stopped to reclaim to Italy this land.

[Ten. Gianluca Missi]

I just meant that , to be on the safe side , France established a border that is , as it was before WW II , favourable with the line running not through the top of the peaks but some meters downhill toward Italian mainland .

I never doubted of the Italianità of Nizza and to me Savoia is part of Italian mainland...

Gian

[Lupo Solitario]

Ok, let’s try a listing:
Alpine Battalions in Army Group West at June 10th, 1940
From North to South, for Corps:

Alpine Corps:
Battalions: Duca degli Abruzzi, Aosta, Val Baltea, Val d’Orco, Ivrea, Val Piave, Val Cordevole, Intra, Val Brenta, Val Cismon, Morbegno, Tirano, Edolo, Vestone, Verona. Total: 15
I Corps:
Battalions: Susa, Val Cenischia, Exilles, Val Dora, Val Fassa. Total 5
IV Corps:
Battalions: Fenestrelle, Pinerolo, Val Pellice, Val Chisone. Total: 4
II Corps:
Battalions: Pieve di Teco, Ceva, Mondovì, Borgo San Dalmazzo, Dronero, Saluzzo, Val Chiese, Val Camonica, Val d’Intelvi, Valtellina, Val Maira, Val Stura. Total: 12
III Corps:
Battalions: Val Ellero, Valle Arroscia, Val Tanaro, Val d’Adige, Val Venosta. Total: 5
XV Corps
No alpini battalions
In riserve, 1st Army:
Battalions: Feltre, Pieve di Cadore, Belluno, Bassano, Trento, Bolzano. Total: 6

As a whole: Army Group West: 47 alpini battalions. Of which: 1st Army: 23; 4th Army: 24

Sources:
Alpini storia e leggenda, vol. II
M. Minola Attacco a Occidente
G. Rochat I battaglioni alpini nella guerra 1940-43
G. Oliva Storia degli Alpini
Etc.etc.

FYI I'm perfectly learned about difference between "alpini" and mountain infantry
bye

[pz3j]

You should note that the Italians deployed no artillery in this campaign. The order to attack France came on the spur of the moment and the Italian army had to deploy quickly for the offensive. They told Duce that the artillery would need at least three weeks to be removed from their positions and transported to new positions, which needed to be constructed. Duce ordered them to attack without it. Once again the Italian troops suffered from a lack of supplies like ammo and even food. Try to imagine attacking a well prepared defensive position without support and when you were hungry. This lack of preparation and logistical common sense is the main reason for this Italian failure just as it was almost everywhere else they fought. It would be wrong to fault the Italian soldiers for this. Some of these same troops would be deployed to Russia and fight very well indeed.

[chris1960]

Ha! The French were so far superior to the Italians even in defeat against the Germans, and they at least gained the consolation and satisfaction of ripping Mussolini's thugs to shreds. The numbers gave all the advantages to the Italians, but they were still no match for the determination, organization and skill of the French troops. I read in one account where a group of French soldiers were taking baths in a semi-underground bunker, and were caught off guard by an Italian unit that outnumbered them by nearly three to one. Still completely naked as they took to their guns and with no time to even put their clothes on, the French soldiers proceeded to mow down the attackers with utmost precision, the Italian soldiers not even knowing enough to divert their path as they kept running straight into the slaughter. The author puts the casualty count for that particular confrontation at over 200 Italians and 0 Frenchmen! Mussolini was reportedly so incensed at seeing this particular unit humiliated by a group of naked soldiers that he called for the execution of the commander, only to find out that he had been among those killed.

[chris1960]

A friend of the Fascist author Gabriele D'Annunzio (his name was Giuseppe Caldini) himself wrote after the war that the Germans immediately stepped in to declare a truce between the French and Italians due to the likelihood that the French were not only about to completely defeat the Italians, but were poised for an outright invasion of Italy itself. Caldini bemoans what could have been the first time in history that an already defeated enemy had successfully mounted an invasion (and possible conquest) of an ally from the victorious side. By comparison, an account given in an interview by one of the so called "Naked Warriors" (as the bathing French soldiers caught off guard by the Italian unit were named) revealed how the euphoria over so easily turning back the Italian attackers quickly (and shamelessly) turned into overkill. The soldier, whose name was given only as Nourlaund (last name?) admitted that the anger and frustration over the news of surrender to the Germans led to this French unit taking it all out on the Italians even after they were seen dropping their guns and holding their arms up in the wake of seeing so many of their comrades massacred. Nourlaund testified that someone else in the French unit (not the commander, though he does not say where he was at the time) urged his fellow troops to show no quarter, and to at least teach the Italians a good lesson. According to Nourland, the slaughter continued until all were presumed dead. No justification for this, of course, especially considering the lack of enthusiasm on the part of most Italian soldiers for the war, though Nourlaund was baffled as to why the Italian troops simply kept running in a straight line to serve as mere target practice for the French.

[Valerio]

I read in one account where a group of French soldiers were taking baths in a semi-underground bunker, and were caught off guard by an Italian unit that outnumbered them by nearly three to one. Still completely naked as they took to their guns and with no time to even put their clothes on, the French soldiers proceeded to mow down the attackers with utmost precision, the Italian soldiers not even knowing enough to divert their path as they kept running straight into the slaughter. The author puts the casualty count for that particular confrontation at over 200 Italians and 0 Frenchmen!

Chris, a shocking information for you: Asterix and Obelix, the Magic Potion and Panoramix didn't exist really...
Hang in there, Chris!
Sincerely your,
Valerio

[Torpedo]

Asterix and Obelix may have not existed, but a true lack of combativeness on the Italian side, did Valerio. And thanks goodness!

I'm myself of Italian background, born in France and interested of WWII.
The Italian people were not ready or willing to start a war. As an evidence:

- How the image of an Italian army can be interpreted with its defeat with Greece?
As a reminder, an invasion force of 85.000 strong versus 35.000?
- Or the loss of so many Italian officers killed within the first days of the invasion of France?
- Or the narrative of a Hurricane, out of ammo, shooting down an Italian biplane with the help of just its propeller, during the Battle of Britain?
- Or those humiliating pictures taken in North Africa where Brits sent back several times to the Afrika Korps groups of 100 Italian prisoners, with one of them hanging around his neck a bill saying: "We exchange those 100 Italians for 1 German"?
- When Hitler planned his attack toward Russia, he went to meet Franco in France to request Spanish troops. But always refused the idea of an Italian contingent. Mussolini on his own decided to send his unprepared, unequipped, troops to the Russian front. Nobody else, but him. And I have to deplore the death of an uncle there, like you Valerio, native from Rome.

The good thing about Italians during this terrible period Europe went through was that after the fall of France, Italy did occupy South of the country. I recall one of my printers I used to work with, saying how beautiful it was to be a prisoner from the Italians. Adding: "It's not until Germans came to replace our Latin jailers in late 1942 that we understood that war was lost!"

This, giving a noble and human aspect to the Italians, few belligerents demonstrated throughout the war.
And not to mention also that Italian troops based in the county of Nice always refused to turn Jews to Germans, what the French police instead did with great assiduousness.

Ciao da Parigi.