I am presently looking for some more information about the sinking of some Italian tankers and other ships by British air attack in 1942-1943, while en route to Libya. The ships I am most interested in are the following ones:
Tanker Thorsheimer (sunk on 21 February 1943 en route Trapani-Tunis, halted by Hudson bombers and sunk by torpedo bombers)
Tanker Luisiano (sunk on 28 October 1942 en route from Navarino to Benghazi by torpedo bombers)
Tanker Picci Fassio (sunk on 2 September 1942 en route from Suda to Tobruk by torpedo bombers)
Tanker Saturno (sunk on 20 January 1943 en route from Bizerte to Naples)
MV Foscolo (sunk on 13 December 1942 en route from Naples to Tripoli by Albacore torpedo bombers of the 828th Squadron FAA)
Steamers Dielpi and Istria sunk by air attacks on 27 August 1942 en route from Suda to Benghazi (Dielpi) and to Tobruk (Istria)
Steamer Minerva sunk by torpedo bombers on 3 December 1942 en route to Tripoli.
I have some information on these ships, from "Navi mercantili perdute", "Il vero traditore" and "La guerra italiana sul mare" plus Internet, but does anyone know more details about these attacks? The things I am most looking for are the fate of the crews (casualties and survivors).
Italian tankers and cargoes sunk by British planes, 1942-43
Re: Italian tankers and cargoes sunk by British planes, 1942
LColombo
Do you have any information on the breakdown of losses on Victoria, sunk 23 Jan 42? She carried both German and Italian troops.
Many thanks for any help you might be able to render.
Do you have any information on the breakdown of losses on Victoria, sunk 23 Jan 42? She carried both German and Italian troops.
Many thanks for any help you might be able to render.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
Re: Italian tankers and cargoes sunk by British planes, 1942
Hello Urmel, on the Victoria I found rather different figures.
"Navi mercantili perdute", in one of the very few cases where the fate of those on board is specified, mentions that the casualties were 249, but gives no number of survivors and I'm not convinced of this figure.
The site "Naval History" mentions 1455 men on board and 1064 survivors, that is 391 casualties.
"Il vero traditore" states that there were troops on board were 1125 men (plus the crew, number not specified) and that 1046 men were rescued.
I think that by 'crossing' what above, the ship had 1125 troops and 330 crew aboard, of these 409 were killed and 1046 survived. Among those lost were both the civilian master (Arduino Moreni) and the naval commander (Captain Giovanni Grana).
"Navi mercantili perdute", in one of the very few cases where the fate of those on board is specified, mentions that the casualties were 249, but gives no number of survivors and I'm not convinced of this figure.
The site "Naval History" mentions 1455 men on board and 1064 survivors, that is 391 casualties.
"Il vero traditore" states that there were troops on board were 1125 men (plus the crew, number not specified) and that 1046 men were rescued.
I think that by 'crossing' what above, the ship had 1125 troops and 330 crew aboard, of these 409 were killed and 1046 survived. Among those lost were both the civilian master (Arduino Moreni) and the naval commander (Captain Giovanni Grana).
Re: Italian tankers and cargoes sunk by British planes, 1942
Hi LColombo
I think the 1,125 is probably only for the Italian troops. There were over 300 Germans as well.
I think the 1,125 is probably only for the Italian troops. There were over 300 Germans as well.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
Re: Italian tankers and cargoes sunk by British planes, 1942
Well, I think that 1125 was combined Italian and German soldiers, plus the crew for a total of 1455.
Re: Italian tankers and cargoes sunk by British planes, 1942
I just can't see a crew of 330 on a liner with no passengers. There were 400 German soldiers from I./and III./ March Battalions, Koblenz, broken down as 5/40/355 (off/nco/or)
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
Re: Italian tankers and cargoes sunk by British planes, 1942
Well, I can.I just can't see a crew of 330 on a liner with no passengers.
At the time of their sinkings:
Neptunia: 312 crew (244 civilians, 14 Italian Navy, 54 Italian Army - maybe gunners), plus obviously the troops (1799 Italians and 827 Germans)
Oceania: 314 crew (240 civilians, 18 Italian Navy, 56 Italian Army), plus the troops (1767 Italians and 819 Germans)
Conte Rosso: 280 crew, plus 2449 troops.
(Data on Neptunia and Oceania comes from the Italian Navy archives via Platon Alexiades who has made a lot of research there and given me a huge help, data on Conte Rosso come from books).
So I think 330 crew on the Victoria could very well be possible.
Re: Italian tankers and cargoes sunk by British planes, 1942
Point taken. But then why use Victoria to bring just 1,100 troops across? It's less than half than what they had on any of the other liners. Two runs on a 'Citta' class auxiliary would have brought more men across.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
Re: Italian tankers and cargoes sunk by British planes, 1942
Well, I don't know. Victoria was a bit smaller than the other three liners (13,000 GRT instead of the 18,000 to 19,500+ GRT of the other three) and probably had less space. Reading a book now, peacetime Victoria is reported with spaces for 666 passengers (239 first class, 245 second class, 182 third class), Conte Rosso 2366 (208 first class, 268 second class, 1890 third class), Neptunia & Oceania 1552 (180 first class, 272 second class, 1100 third class). Naturally this was modified for carrying troops and not valid anymore, but just to give an idea about the apparent difference of space available.
Moreover, maybe there was not so much need of more men, rather than supplies. On "La guerra italiana sul mare" I found that overall the ships in the convoy carried 1467 troops; I think the 342 'exceeding' troops were probably carried by some of the cargo motor vessels. It seems that often those new motor cargo ships, in addition to supplies, carried some troops and they often found themselves with some 250 to 350 men aboard on each voyage, this sometimes resulting in heavy loss of life when they were sunk (Fabio Filzi, Gino Allegri, Andrea Gritti, Emma).
After all, both sources that give overall numbers of the men seems to agree: Naval History gives a exact number of 1455 and Santoni ("Il vero traditore") mentions some 1,400 men on board, so I think 1455 men overall is correct; and if we add 1125 Italians, plus 400 Germans, we already have more than that, and then you still have to add the crew.
Moreover, maybe there was not so much need of more men, rather than supplies. On "La guerra italiana sul mare" I found that overall the ships in the convoy carried 1467 troops; I think the 342 'exceeding' troops were probably carried by some of the cargo motor vessels. It seems that often those new motor cargo ships, in addition to supplies, carried some troops and they often found themselves with some 250 to 350 men aboard on each voyage, this sometimes resulting in heavy loss of life when they were sunk (Fabio Filzi, Gino Allegri, Andrea Gritti, Emma).
After all, both sources that give overall numbers of the men seems to agree: Naval History gives a exact number of 1455 and Santoni ("Il vero traditore") mentions some 1,400 men on board, so I think 1455 men overall is correct; and if we add 1125 Italians, plus 400 Germans, we already have more than that, and then you still have to add the crew.
Re: Italian tankers and cargoes sunk by British planes, 1942
You've convinced me. From looking at the German loading lists, I would say that the soldiers sent on the merchant vessels were simply accompanying their vehicles. With 100+ vehicles on a typical vessel, the number of men quickly added up.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
Re: Italian tankers and cargoes sunk by air attack, 1942-43
P.Fassio - 20/33 rescued, 13 killed. Origin Taranto, via Suda to Tobruk, it at 01.55 after repeated attacks by a torpedo which led the cargo to explode and 'asportando la poppa' (broken in two?), sinks in a few minutes.
Istria - 60/67 - convoy originated from Pireo, not Suda, destination Tobruk for both. Might find something in the WD of Hermes, who was Capo Scorta out of Suda. Istria sunk 18.30, near Tolmetta, hit by two aerial torpedoes and incendaries. Burned and sank within minutes. Crew rescue carried out by Tp Cascino at risk due to ongoing fire.
Dielpi - 52/58 - originated from Naples, destination Tobruk, hit by a torpedo 'a poppa', leading to an explosion of ammunition in holds 4&5. Sank in 4 minutes 70 miles NW of Ras el Tin. Crew rescue carried out by Tp Pegaso and 2 Mz, 744 and 758.
Istria - 60/67 - convoy originated from Pireo, not Suda, destination Tobruk for both. Might find something in the WD of Hermes, who was Capo Scorta out of Suda. Istria sunk 18.30, near Tolmetta, hit by two aerial torpedoes and incendaries. Burned and sank within minutes. Crew rescue carried out by Tp Cascino at risk due to ongoing fire.
Dielpi - 52/58 - originated from Naples, destination Tobruk, hit by a torpedo 'a poppa', leading to an explosion of ammunition in holds 4&5. Sank in 4 minutes 70 miles NW of Ras el Tin. Crew rescue carried out by Tp Pegaso and 2 Mz, 744 and 758.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
Re: Italian tankers and cargoes sunk by air attack, 1942-43
Thank you.
asportando la poppa=blowing off her stern
a poppa=in the stern
(poppa is Italian for stern)
asportando la poppa=blowing off her stern
a poppa=in the stern
(poppa is Italian for stern)
Re: Italian tankers and cargoes sunk by air attack, 1942-43
I always get that the wrong way around 
Note on the English - I believe when you write 'cargoes' you mean 'merchants', i.e. the ships, rather than the cargo they had loaded?
Note on the English - I believe when you write 'cargoes' you mean 'merchants', i.e. the ships, rather than the cargo they had loaded?
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
Re: Italian tankers and cargoes sunk by air attack, 1942-43
The above from La Difesa. I am afraid I do not have the final volume, so can't help with the others.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
Re: Italian tankers and cargoes sunk by British planes, 1942
Source is the Italian Naval History, volume VIII, La Difesa del Trafficio.
Tanker Luisiano (sunk on 28 October 1942 en route from Navarino to Benghazi by torpedo bombers). Total crew not provided; one torpedo hit, ship exploded and only 8 survivors. (pg. 96)
Steamer Minerva sunk by torpedo bombers on 3 December 1942 en route to Tripoli. Total 47 men, 26 saved and 21 lost (including the captain). States the ship was set on fire by incendiary bombs, fuel ignited and ship burned.. (pg. 116)
MV Foscolo (sunk on 13 December 1942 en route from Naples to Tripoli by Albacore torpedo bombers of the 828th Squadron FAA): Attack illuminated the ship, was hit by one torpedo and set on fire. 108 men on board (no break-out provided), 81 rescued (50 Italian and 31 German), 27 lost (including the captain). (pg. 117)
Tanker Saturno (sunk on 20 January 1943 en route from Bizerte to Naples). Hit by one torpedo in third attack. No total given, only one man lost (killed by strafing). (pg. 187-8)
Tanker Thorsheimer (sunk on 21 February 1943 en route Trapani-Tunis, halted by Hudson bombers and sunk by torpedo bombers). German ship. Near missed by three bombs that had results like torpedo hits. No total provided, 49 rescued. (pg. 202).
Pista! Jeff
Tanker Luisiano (sunk on 28 October 1942 en route from Navarino to Benghazi by torpedo bombers). Total crew not provided; one torpedo hit, ship exploded and only 8 survivors. (pg. 96)
Steamer Minerva sunk by torpedo bombers on 3 December 1942 en route to Tripoli. Total 47 men, 26 saved and 21 lost (including the captain). States the ship was set on fire by incendiary bombs, fuel ignited and ship burned.. (pg. 116)
MV Foscolo (sunk on 13 December 1942 en route from Naples to Tripoli by Albacore torpedo bombers of the 828th Squadron FAA): Attack illuminated the ship, was hit by one torpedo and set on fire. 108 men on board (no break-out provided), 81 rescued (50 Italian and 31 German), 27 lost (including the captain). (pg. 117)
Tanker Saturno (sunk on 20 January 1943 en route from Bizerte to Naples). Hit by one torpedo in third attack. No total given, only one man lost (killed by strafing). (pg. 187-8)
Tanker Thorsheimer (sunk on 21 February 1943 en route Trapani-Tunis, halted by Hudson bombers and sunk by torpedo bombers). German ship. Near missed by three bombs that had results like torpedo hits. No total provided, 49 rescued. (pg. 202).
Pista! Jeff
Jeff Leser
Infantrymen of the Air
Infantrymen of the Air