Fascism and aviation?
Re: Fascism and aviation?
I don't think Durb has an hidden agenda either. In my opinion he just put the cart before the horse maybe because current perceptions of Fascist word.
Fascism was not a marginal movement and being Fascist was not a blame word for Fascists.
Do you imagine the same phrase towards a Communist or a Republican? They willingly "accepted to be called Communists or Republicans"? It is redundant.
Fascism was not a marginal movement and being Fascist was not a blame word for Fascists.
Do you imagine the same phrase towards a Communist or a Republican? They willingly "accepted to be called Communists or Republicans"? It is redundant.
- Ironmachine
- Member
- Posts: 5821
- Joined: 07 Jul 2005, 11:50
- Location: Spain
Re: Fascism and aviation?
But you are supposing that all the Italian pilots of the Aviazione Legionaria were indeed Fascists. I think durb's point is that if some weren't, how did they feel being called such? In fact, your counterexample should be something like: would a member of Izquierda Republicana willingly accept to be called Communist? Not redundant at all.
Re: Fascism and aviation?
Well, of the motives of Italian flyers to go to Spain I guess that they were varying - the ideological dimension was the one accentuated in the records of that time (1936-1939). Spanish Civil War was a kind of holy war against communism/fascism for many. But I guess that also other motives played a part - adventure and a desire to be a true combat aviation pilot like the ones of WW1 of which they may have read - perhaps sounds a bit childish, but they were young men. Combat and glory...
I do not know if Italian pilots going to Spain received also some monetary incentives as their Legion Condor counterparts, but money I guess not played the biggest part in the decision to participate in airwar over foreign country for Italian/German/Soviet pilots. Extra payment was surely a nice benefit for Legion Condor pilots - when back in Germany many bought a new car (often expensive model) and invested in shares with the extra money that they had earned for their mission in Spain. But maybe not full-blooded mercenaries.
But going to arts:
I wonder if Marinetti´s Manifesto dell´aeropoesia and examples of aeropoesia are to be found in English somewhere in the web? Poems dedicated also to the pilots of Aviazione Legionaria?
Also in the Italian ballet got involved with the aviation during the Fascist era, if I have understood correctly the Aerodanze - could be curious to see if some "aerial dance" has been filmed.
I do not know if Italian pilots going to Spain received also some monetary incentives as their Legion Condor counterparts, but money I guess not played the biggest part in the decision to participate in airwar over foreign country for Italian/German/Soviet pilots. Extra payment was surely a nice benefit for Legion Condor pilots - when back in Germany many bought a new car (often expensive model) and invested in shares with the extra money that they had earned for their mission in Spain. But maybe not full-blooded mercenaries.
But going to arts:
I wonder if Marinetti´s Manifesto dell´aeropoesia and examples of aeropoesia are to be found in English somewhere in the web? Poems dedicated also to the pilots of Aviazione Legionaria?
Also in the Italian ballet got involved with the aviation during the Fascist era, if I have understood correctly the Aerodanze - could be curious to see if some "aerial dance" has been filmed.
Re: Fascism and aviation?
I don't suppose "all" were Fascists, but the majority were. If we generalise about a group of people at least we should generalise the common characteristics of the majority. Durb post makes sense only if most Aviazione Legionaria - the name already says something- weren't.
---------------------------------------------------------
I never researched that two questions durb.
---------------------------------------------------------
I never researched that two questions durb.
- Ironmachine
- Member
- Posts: 5821
- Joined: 07 Jul 2005, 11:50
- Location: Spain
Re: Fascism and aviation?
Indeed the name already says something, but not about its Fascist nature...Durb post makes sense only if most Aviazione Legionaria - the name already says something- weren't.
Re: Fascism and aviation?
Yes it is does about Fascism and its copy of Romans . CCNN fascist milizia grades and units were derived from Roman army.
- Ironmachine
- Member
- Posts: 5821
- Joined: 07 Jul 2005, 11:50
- Location: Spain
Re: Fascism and aviation?
Yes, CCNN fascist milizia grades and units were derived for Roman Army. But unfortunately for your argument, the name was not given for that reason; leaving aside the fact that the Aviazione Legionaria was not a CCNN unit, but was formed with planes and men from the Regia Aeronautica, the name was just chosen to disguise the Italian involvement in the SCW by pretending that the unit was part of the Spanish Legión. That's why it was initially known as Aviación del Tercio, as the Legión was called by then. So no, the name does not say anything about the Fascist nature of the unit, much less so about the Fascist sympathies of its members.Dili wrote:Yes it is does about Fascism and its copy of Romans . CCNN fascist milizia grades and units were derived from Roman army.
Re: Fascism and aviation?
Whether Italian flyers were fascists or not, I have read a memoir in which one Repuclican pilot told that after the final surrender in 1939 the first Nationalist unit that arrived to take control of their airfield was a Italian air unit and that they were well treated by Italians - not any threats and with all "discreción". Much better than than they were treated by Spanish Nationalists who came later to take over the airfield and surrendered Republican airmen. But that I guess goes to the nature of all civil wars - between Spaniards it was more bitter and cruel. Anyway perhaps an example that in practice Italians did not always have strong ideologically motivated hate toward their adversaries in Spanish Civil War despite the propaganda of the time.
- Ironmachine
- Member
- Posts: 5821
- Joined: 07 Jul 2005, 11:50
- Location: Spain
Re: Fascism and aviation?
The badge of the Aviación Legionaria:
http://www.ww2wings.com/wings/spain/leg ... ilot.shtml)
It was formed simply by superimposing the emblem of the Arma de Aviación and the emblem of La Legión, as the men and machines of the Aviación Legionaria were (on paper) part of the Legión. That was the origin of the name, nothing to do with Fascism's love for ancient Rome.
(source:It was formed simply by superimposing the emblem of the Arma de Aviación and the emblem of La Legión, as the men and machines of the Aviación Legionaria were (on paper) part of the Legión. That was the origin of the name, nothing to do with Fascism's love for ancient Rome.
Re: Fascism and aviation?
The one thing which goes perhaps off the topic are the futurist art expressions like aeropoesia and aeropittura - but my impression is that fascist governement encouraged more or less these forms of abstract artistic expression connected to aviation. This is related to more complicated issue about how much futurism and fascism were linked to each others. All futurists were not fascists and all fascists did not like of futurist arts works.
The Italian fascism was in my opinion considerably more relaxed form of totalitarian governement than stalinist Soviet Union or Nazi Germany. This could be seen in both intellectual field and arts life. For example the abstract aeropittura was something that you would not find from the standardized culture programs of the Soviet Union of Stalin Era and Nazi Germany.
My bold guess is that in the area of painting and poetry the linking of aviation with futurist artistic expression did keep abstract arts expression very much alive and developing more or less freely - and were perhaps even sponsored by some extent by the Italian government and state. Similar kind of abstract/non-figurative arts forms were bourgeois decadence - "unsoviet" or "ungerman" - for the more rigid dictatures of Soviet Union and Third Reich.
The Italian fascism was in my opinion considerably more relaxed form of totalitarian governement than stalinist Soviet Union or Nazi Germany. This could be seen in both intellectual field and arts life. For example the abstract aeropittura was something that you would not find from the standardized culture programs of the Soviet Union of Stalin Era and Nazi Germany.
My bold guess is that in the area of painting and poetry the linking of aviation with futurist artistic expression did keep abstract arts expression very much alive and developing more or less freely - and were perhaps even sponsored by some extent by the Italian government and state. Similar kind of abstract/non-figurative arts forms were bourgeois decadence - "unsoviet" or "ungerman" - for the more rigid dictatures of Soviet Union and Third Reich.