German and Russian tanks in ARMIR

[mfy4444]

One more annoying question, then I will go back into "lurker" mode for a while!

I am looking for information on two topics:

1. A Wikipedia article

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Army_in_Russia

says that the Italians in Russia had received 12 Panzer IVs from the Germans by November 1942. Can anyone verify this? And, if true, what unit used them?

2. I know the Italians captured at least 14 Soviet tanks for their own use. This included one T-34 that wound up in the PADA's artillery group. There were also some BT-7s used by PADA, I wonder if anyone can supply the exact number, and, again, what sub-unit would have used them.

Thanks for any potential answers (or for pointing me to online sources where I could find this information for myself, if any exist-- I do read Italian).

Regards

Mike Yaklich

[Ironmachine]

1. A Wikipedia article
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Army_in_Russia
says that the Italians in Russia had received 12 Panzer IVs from the Germans by November 1942. Can anyone verify this? And, if true, what unit used them?

I think the Wikipedia article's statement is lacking some clarity and that's why you are misunderstanding it. While the article says that the Italians received 12 German Mk. IV tanks, it does not say that the Italians in Russia received them as you suppose. The Italians did receive 12 German Mk. IV tanks, but they were not employed on the Eastern Front. They were kept in Italy with the Armored Group Leonessa of the 1. Blackshirt Armored Division M (later redesignated). Even Wikipedia acknowledge that:

[...] offered Italy 12 tanks to form the nucleus of a new armored division. These were used to train Italian crews while the Italian dictator Benito Mussolini was deposed, but were retaken by Germany during its occupation of Italy in mid-1943.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_IV

[mfy4444]

Thanks, Ironmachine, I didn't consider that interpretation of the Wikipedia page. I knew about those 12 Panzer IVs (and with them also 12 StG III and 12 late-model Panzer IIIs with short 75mm gun). But the way the Wikipedia article is stated, it makes it sound like they went to the Russian front, since the same sentence mentions captured Soviet tanks available to ARMIR. I had never heard of Italians operating Panzer IVs in Russia, so I was surprised, maybe you're right and it's just a misleading sentence on Wikipedia (wouldn't be the first time things there were misleading or just plain wrong! )

My interest in any other armor in ARMIR aside from the L.6s in 67th Bersaglieri Battalion and the semoventi da 47/32 in the Alessandria battalion (plus four AB.41s in Vicenza Division) is that I read of General Paolo Tarnassi, killed in a bombing attack in December 1942, who was commander of Italian armored forces in Russia. I know that the Italian Army tended to be a bit top-heavy with generals (due largely, I think, to their policy regarding retention and promotion of officers during peacetime, first instituted around 1926, that got rid of half the Army's lieutenants but retained a much higher proportion of higher ranks). But it seems a bit absurd to assign a general, even a Brigadier-General, to oversee an "armored force" of 44 L.6s and 19 semoventi. Valentino Babini held a similar position in Libya in 1940, but-- even before he started receiving M.13 battalions late in the year-- he had two battalions of M.11s and six or seven battalions of L.3s within his command area, thus well more than a brigade's worth of tanks and something worthy of a general officer's command (actually, about three times as many tanks as in an armored division). So I wondered if there was any significant other armor that Tarnassi had under his control in Russia, to justify assigning a general to the post.

But then, as always, I started getting curious, and wondered where those captured Russian tanks wound up being assigned within PADA, which by mid-1942 was a motorized division in all but name.

Thanks again. Unless someone can furnish me more details about any Panzer IVs in Italian hands in Russia, which I never heard of before reading the Wikipedia article, I'll assume there weren't any and chalk it up to, oh well, Wikipedia (much though I love that resource when properly researched and footnoted).

Regards

Mike Yaklich

[Ironmachine]

If you look here:
http://www.generals.dk/general/Tarnassi ... Italy.html
you can see that Tarnassi was a colonel for most of his time on the Eastern Front, being promoted to Brigadier-General just on 22 June 1942. As colonel AFAIK he was commander of the San Giorgio Tank Group.
It is certainly easy to find references in the web that when promoted he became commander of Italian armored forces in Russia, but the sources do not seem to be very reliable. Now, this webpage:
http://www.unirr.it/11-storia?start=7
and the book Die Italiener an der Ostfront 1942/43: Dokumente zu Mussolinis Krieg gegen die Sowjetunion, Número 91 both place him assigned to the headquarters of the II Corps, available for "special tasks". As such, he may have been assigned to temporarily command a combined armored force if needed, or a mixed-arms battlegroup. To me, this seems much more likely.
Regards.

[Ironmachine]

I have found this document:
http://www.storiaememoriadibologna.it/f ... patria.pdf
that quotes the document granting him (posthumously) the Medaglia di Bronzo al Valor Militare, it says: "Tarnassi Paolo fu Giovanni, comandante un raggruppamento di Battaglioni,[...]" So it seems he was indeed available to command groups of units as needed, but he was not commander of Italian armored forces in Russia.

[mfy4444]

Yes, that was stupid of me, I should have tried researching Tarnassi instead of just accepting what I read on Wikipedia. I am now pretty sure that any reference to Tarnassi as overall commander of armor in Russia began with someone's misunderstanding. As commander of the San Giorgio Battalion in 1941 he would in fact have been the commander of the CSIR's armor, since that battalion of L.3s was all the armor the Italians had in Russia at the time. But all the L.3s were lost by the end of 1941, and Tarnassi as I see moved on to other duties. So I think that was probably how that reference began. Thanks for setting me straight, I should have been smart enough to do that research myself (especially given the original source, Wikipedia!)

Regards

Mike Yaklich