Fate of Italian pows

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Marcus
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Fate of Italian pows

#1

Post by Marcus » 15 Oct 2003, 22:21

I've got conflicting information about the fate of the Italian pows taken by the Germans after the surrender and I'd appreciate your help in clearing the confusion. Were they given chance to join the RSI forces or not?

Thanks.

/Marcus

Luca
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Re: Fate of Italian pows

#2

Post by Luca » 15 Oct 2003, 23:01

Marcus Wendel wrote:I've got conflicting information about the fate of the Italian pows taken by the Germans after the surrender and I'd appreciate your help in clearing the confusion. Were they given chance to join the RSI forces or not?

Thanks.

/Marcus
Yes, they given chance to join the RSI forces.
My dad was in Danzig camp. He say that a really big amount of Italians want continue the war, someone for patriottic decisions, someone only for exit from the bad situation that is the prigiony.
But after long words they decide to stay in camp, that no was exactly an holiday place.
The cause of the decision was that the RSI was alley of Germans.
The very bad treatment of the Germans against the Italians prisoners, short time before good Kameraden, scandalize a lot the Italian prisoners.
They cant understend why they was considered and treated as traitors. The 8 September was a very big confusion time. The little king escape without send clear orders and a lot of Italians soldiers no really understend what happened.
For much of this prisoners the decision of stay in camp no was the more easy decision.
Sorry for the poor quality of the notes, concerning only personals facts.
Luca


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#3

Post by Luca » 15 Oct 2003, 23:05

After some time of imprisonement, some RSI members arrive in the POW germans camps for recruit fighters. Only a little amount of POWs accept.
Luca

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Lupo Solitario
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#4

Post by Lupo Solitario » 16 Oct 2003, 13:44

Yes, many efforts had been made to push italian "internati" (not POWs, this dignity had been always negated them) to join RSI between 1943 and 44. With few success. There had been more or less 15000 adhesions on 630000 internati: a ratio of 2.4%. They were employed in building RSI army; the others were employed in forced jobs.

bye
Lupo

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Marcus
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#5

Post by Marcus » 16 Oct 2003, 16:58

Thanks for the input so far.

/Marcus

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#6

Post by FB » 17 Oct 2003, 08:57

As Lupo Solitario and Luca already mentioned, the Italians brought to prisony in Germany were, at some points or anther, given the opportunity to enlist in RSI Army.

Lupo is also right in pointing out that the "prisoners", as they are commonly referred to, were in reality, I should more correctly say technically, considered IMI (Internati Militari Italiani = Italian Military Internees). This "new" ad hoc definition had several reasons for its adoption. for example: in the high spheres of the German Government there was the will of not officially hurt more than necessary what was going to become an ally, the Repubblica Sociale. Probably it was not seen as "nice" to held several hundred thousands soldiers as POWs, when these same soldiers were from an allied Country. Then, also very important, the Germans were also willing to avoid having someone look after those men. Only them and those authorized by them could go in the camps even if it was only for having informations from the internees. Above all, the Red Cross, even if they knew about the Italians, couldn't officially do nothing for them, because they wer not held by the German Government as POWs, thus cutting the grass under the Red Cross feet.

As far as the scarce adesion to the RSI goes, it is my opinion that for a lot of the internees the refusal to join is to be searched in the fact that Germany, untill 10 or 15 years before was an enemy. For a lot if Italians the German was an enemy. WWI was still a fresh and open wound for a lot of families. To this it must be added that those that had the "opportunity" to fight together with the Germans, did not gain a favourable opinion of them. They admired their power and organization, they hated their methods and lack of "humanity" towards civilians and themselves. Those that fought in Russia were probably the harshest against them. Being left, a lone Army Corps, in the middle of nowhere, in order to gain to the Germans the time to retreat and organize a new front line hunderds of Kms behind the previous lines, was a dacesion that cost to the Italians, particularly the Alpini, tens of thousands of deads. To all this it must be added that the way they were taken and brought to Germany was not, let's put it this way, one of the best "marketing" operation that I have seen. No wonder that after such a treatment only a few decided to go back and fight with the Germans.

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#7

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 17 Oct 2003, 20:20

Only partially true the facts about IMIs at Danzig. The largest quote of these were Carabinieri and my uncle Appuntato Antonio Pagliarani ( born 1905 still living, the younger brother of my Grandpa, the uncle of dad) was one of them. He was captured in a polish Lazzaret (2nd line Hospital?) because he got TBC on Don River front and he was cured there till the previous year. During October 1943 he was jailed at Danzig and he always said that that the only reason he never adhered to RSI was by cause of the oath "directly in the hands of the King". For those braves was much better the loss of life than breaking a sacre oath, because Arma dei Carabinieri under the Kingdom was an effective Royal Guard Corp. Not only but POWS internal propaganda said them that the family of the King was close to be executed in extermination camps (..for Mafalda di Savoia this really happened!..) All those IMI were employed in Todt organization. In May 1945 Antonio met dad (RSI Officer Pilot) while escaping from Russians near Berlin and dad was hidden by uncle Tony among desbanded IMIs, saving his life.

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#8

Post by Luca » 18 Oct 2003, 05:36

gabriel pagliarani wrote: Not only but POWS internal propaganda said them that the family of the King was close to be executed in extermination camps (..for Mafalda di Savoia this really happened!
The power of "radio scarpa".......
please, write some informations about the fate of Mafalda.
Luca

PS = very happy to know that Your relatives no was in the encircle of Danzig, nobody, with any uniform, was able to escape.....

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#9

Post by FB » 20 Oct 2003, 09:26

gabriel pagliarani wrote:Only partially true the facts about IMIs at Danzig. The largest quote of these were Carabinieri and my uncle Appuntato Antonio Pagliarani ( born 1905 still living, the younger brother of my Grandpa, the uncle of dad) was one of them. He was captured in a polish Lazzaret (2nd line Hospital?) because he got TBC on Don River front and he was cured there till the previous year. During October 1943 he was jailed at Danzig and he always said that that the only reason he never adhered to RSI was by cause of the oath "directly in the hands of the King". For those braves was much better the loss of life than breaking a sacre oath, because Arma dei Carabinieri under the Kingdom was an effective Royal Guard Corp. Not only but POWS internal propaganda said them that the family of the King was close to be executed in extermination camps (..for Mafalda di Savoia this really happened!..) All those IMI were employed in Todt organization. In May 1945 Antonio met dad (RSI Officer Pilot) while escaping from Russians near Berlin and dad was hidden by uncle Tony among desbanded IMIs, saving his life.
Interesting story. There's a book, written in the sixties by a Polish author, a journalist, about the fate of Italians in Poland after Sept 8, 1943. Your Greatuncle (and your Dad aswell!) was lucky. Some thousands of Italians were executed by the Germans as soon as the news of Italy's surrender arrived there.

The title of the book is Le Tombe dell'ARMIR (ARMIR' Toms) If you are interested I can give you more detalis, such as author's name/publisher, I don't have it at hand right now.

Best regards

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#10

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 20 Oct 2003, 14:30

Thank you. I was informed about this sad story: in Poland there are a lot of unknown italian lost graveyards. About Mafalda (fortunately) I have no real eyewitness because my own relatives escaped extermination camps. Effectively Hitler thought to execute there the whole "Arma dei Carabinieri": a plan to liquidate them all was ready but never performed.

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#11

Post by FB » 20 Oct 2003, 14:56

Your wellcome, Gabriel.

As I told the book's title is: Le Tombe dell'ARMIR (ARMIR's Tombs)

author is: WILCZUR, Jacek:

Publisher is Mondadori. I have a paperback edition, year 1964.

Best regards

P.S.: The facility with which I found this book in the famous religious order of my bookshelves, is still astonishing me. I found it "first shot"! :D :D

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#12

Post by GLADIVM » 22 Oct 2003, 04:32

Sorry Gabriel ,

But Mafalda was not executed , she died as a consequence of injuries from an allied bombing of Buckenwald Camp where she was imprisoned .

She was lying in an improvised trenche with other inmates during the bombing and had her left arm shattered by sharpnels .
After the bombing other inmates took her to the infirmary of the camp brothel , where she was cared for by the prositutes as the german doctors refused to give her any treatment .
She was left there for few days and her conditions continued to worsen , developing gangrene , finally the camp doctors decided to operate and amputated her arm , the surgery took a very long time .
An inmate the italian doctor Fausto Pecorari , which worked as radiologist , later said that the operation was carried on with a right procedure but far too long in its timing and he believed that the germans had deliberately avoided to give better help to Mafalda .

After surgery Mafalda was brought back to infirmary and left there without further medical care , she died the morning after 28 August without regaining conscience .

Yours

GLADIVM

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#13

Post by Luca » 23 Oct 2003, 10:37

Strange,
reading your last message GLADIUM, appear that Mafalda was killed by the germans. My vision is a little bit different. Sincerly, i no remember a lot.
Is in any case incorrect write..."an allied bombing of Buckenwald Camp ".
Luca

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#14

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 23 Oct 2003, 11:55

Luca wrote:Strange,
reading your last message GLADIUM, appear that Mafalda was killed by the germans. My vision is a little bit different. Sincerly, i no remember a lot.
Is in any case incorrect write..."an allied bombing of Buckenwald Camp ".
Luca
:lol: What allied bombing of Buchenwald? OSS and MI-5 well known that Buchenwald was an extermination camp till 1942. An allied bombing of those camps had to be only negative for the Allied part, subtracting eyewitnesses of Nazi crimes and a source of internal resistance to the Reich. This bull-shit seems to be a failed cosmetic post-war patch between Italian and German new governments. Italy was a kingdom till 2 june 1948. Anyway these facts, even if known, were not relevant for IMIs' aknowledgement: they thought Germany betrayed, not Italy! :idea: All the Royal family was persecuted by SS in their imagination! Togliatti's "disinformazia" well worked among those IMIs. Who was behind "Radio Scarpa" (..or Radio Fante..)? Compagno Peppone, obviously.

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#15

Post by Luca » 23 Oct 2003, 14:08

For the poor that i know..
secrets contacts between england and the king, in evident betrayal, occurred.
The germans have some foundated suspects.
They invite the king for an very important meeting in another State, i no remember, Romania?The king supspect that the germans have suspects and no want go cause he have dread for her person. Also nobody of the royal family want go.
If nobody go can be considered as the prove of the germans suspects and an insult.
Our heoric king decide to send she doughter, after was write cause was a womans and cause some german relatives of she husband..i no remember more sorry.
In my poor opinion, simple the king send a girl for do the work that was dangerous for a man.
In any case Mafalda di Savoia go and was take as hostage.
She was send in a KL.
Eat and dress as the others prisoners but no was forced to work. As privilege she live in a very poor little barrack in the extreme corner of the camp with she personal domestic woman without others prisoners.
The only costriction was that for some definite short hours of the days she cant exit from she barrack.
For several time an installation of war products located around 5 KM to the KL was bombed from the englands but no 1 day the KL was attaked.
During one of these attaks to the installations, for a strange casuality (after the englands say cause the frog), only one single airplane exit from the fly formation, he arrive up the KL and send one single bomb, and return in fly formation over the installations under bomb attak.
For another strange casuality this single bomb center exactly the Mafalda barrak, during one of the hours of the days that she was forced to stay into the barrak.
In tihs moment im no sure but if i remember well the attaks to the installations was everytime during the night, strange that this attak occurred in the day.
Is new for me that someone is able to survive to an airplane bomb exactly up her head, but in any case the official write history say that Mafalda survive to an no better explaned air attak and was in concrete killed by the germans (that no have sure any interest in she death).
Short time after this strange casuality, the king signed with the englands the famous betrayal, consigned to the enemy the italian navys, so importants in the future debarquement of Sicily, send a generic order of surrender that was the cause of so much deaths and prisoners in the italian fighters, caused the deportations of the italians jews,no permitted before, and the civil war, arrested Mussolini, and, obviously, as the poor Mafalda can maybe confirm, no in first person, infact the "king" escape and do all these good new facts for the italian population and her land, hidden in secure place.

If i have write some inprecisations sorry a lot, is only my memory.
I want also say that the exactly knowledge of the KZ times can confirm that englans know very well what occurred in the KL. I dont know if during the war period they move one single finger for help the prisoners, for example sendind one single bomb up the guards barrack or up one of the famous gas rooms, or more simple and without admit the knowledge of the camps, simple bombing the raylways in direction of the camps....but this is sure off topic.
In any case, in my poor opinion, the execution of hostages in enemy hands can be, if is possible, again more disgusting that the execution of hostages in my hands.
And if someone agree with me, this can be the prove that im off topic, infact, for my poor eyes, this sad history can stay with much more rights in "Allies war crimes" topic.
Luca

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