Slovene & Croat survivors of war camp lament Italy's amn

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Allen Milcic
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Slovene & Croat survivors of war camp lament Italy's amn

#1

Post by Allen Milcic » 29 Oct 2003, 20:04

Survivors of war camp lament Italy's amnesia
Thomas Fuller/IHT
International Herald Tribune
Wednesday, October 29, 2003


RAB, Croatia -- Metod Milac says he remembers October on this wind-swept island because the nights turned cold and disease spread more quickly.

He recalls the cup of thin gruel at mealtime, a soup so watered down that he could count the grains of rice. And he remembered roll call, where Italian soldiers would yell: "Tutti fuori, anche morti!" Everyone out, including the dead.

Six decades after the Italian military imprisoned Slovenes, Croats and Jews in a concentration camp on this island, the memories are vivid for the few remaining survivors.

But as they reach their final years, the survivors lament that memories are apparently not as sharp across the Italian border. There is a general amnesia about the Rab concentration camp, they say.

Silvio Berlusconi, the prime minister of Italy, recently told an Italian newspaper that the fascist government of Benito Mussolini "never killed anyone."

"Mussolini used to send people on vacation in internal exile," Berlusconi was quoted as saying in La Voce di Rimini, an Italian newspaper.

Those comments angered the Rab survivors as well as others, mostly Slovenes, who endured Italian concentration camps at Treviso, Gonars, Padova and Renicci.

Berlusconi's words were condemned by many in Italy and around the world. But survivors of the Rab camp said they fit into a pattern.

Italy is often portrayed as having been a somewhat benign fascist power during World War II, a reluctant partner of the Nazi regime. The wartime Italian Army is remembered as hapless and inefficient compared to the ruthlessly brutal German war machine.

This is not what the Rab survivors remember.

Anton Vratusa, a former prisoner at Rab who went on to be Yugoslavia's ambassador at the United Nations, said that there were four distinct camps at Rab and a place that prisoners darkly referred to as the fifth camp, a cemetery where the hundreds who died of cold, starvation or illness were buried.

"The present-day generation in Italy doesn't know or knows very little about the real role of Italy during the Second World War," Vratusa said in a telephone interview.

The camps were a collection of more than a thousand open-air tents arrayed across a valley and surrounded by razor wire and guard towers. There was no organized medical care, limited water and very little food.

Vratusa and Milac, both Slovenes, said that they believed the Italians intended to kill everyone in the camp by starving them.

Yugoslavia at the time was carved up by the Axis powers, with Germany, Italy and Hungary each taking a chunk.

The prisoners were generally men suspected of resisting the Italian occupation army or women and children who lived in villages suspected of sympathizing with the resistance.

Established in July 1942, the camp held a total of about 10,000 people until it was disbanded in September 1943.

During winter months in Rab, the death toll rose sharply, mainly because prisoners were not given proper clothing and lived in tents exposed to the cold. Babies and children died first because they were more vulnerable to these brutal conditions.

By the time Italy capitulated in 1943, more than 1,200 prisoners had died, according to research by Bozidar Jezernik, a Slovenian historian and dean of the Faculty of Arts at the University of Ljubljana. He estimates that the real death toll is around 2,000 when taking into account weakened people who were moved to other camps before they died.

More than a hundred of the victims were children under age 10, according to Jezernik, who based his estimate on Italian documents and the records of Slovenian and Croatian church officials.

Jews were held separately at Rab and were treated relatively better, survivors said. They had access to radio and newspapers and were better-fed. "We were prisoners; they were protected people," Vratusa said. "We used their assistance."

A unique partnership emerged between Jewish prisoners and Slovene and Croat partisans. After the Italians capitulated, a group of young Jewish men who were in decent physical shape joined the emaciated Slovenes to form a military unit - the Rab Brigade, they called it - to fight the German occupying army.

The brigade used weapons captured from their Italian prison guards and commandeered several Italian supply ships filled with uniforms, ammunition and food, including copious amount of parmesan cheese, a delicacy for the starved prisoners.

Stripped of their arms, the Italian guards were put on a boat and sent away. The Italian colonel in charge of the camp was captured and committed suicide.

By the murderous standards of the second world war, Rab was perhaps only a footnote of evil.

But Slovenian historians say that Italy's concentration camps deserve at least some mention in the annals of Western European history.

"I have checked many encyclopedias," Jezernik said, "and you won't find a single mention of Italian concentration camps."

Jezernik said that when he sought files from the Italian national archives in Rome in the 1990's, he was told by officials that most of the documents could not be divulged until 75 years after they were written. This would make them available around 2018.

David Wingeate Pike, a Paris-based historian of World War II and a former British intelligence officer in the Balkans, said one reason that Italian war crimes had not been fully investigated was because Allied forces did not have the same incentives to delve into them.

"In 1943, after all, Italy was on our side," Pike said. "I suppose the deal was: 'We don't want to know about your crimes but help us win this war.'" There were no trials of Italian war criminals as there were for the Germans and Japanese, Pike said.

Today there are perhaps other reasons to play down Italy's crimes. As Slovenia prepares to enter the European Union and Croatia aspires for membership, it is impolitic to dwell on Italy's wartime past.

Yet all of this geopolitical reasoning is not what interests the Rab survivors. In the twilight of their lives, they want the story to be told and remembered.

"Even in Slovenia they do not pay much attention to it," Milac said, "which hurts me a lot."

When Milac left the camp in January 1943 - he was lucky enough to be released early by the Italians - he was so weak and emaciated that he could not climb the ladder of the boat that took him back to the mainland.

Now a retired librarian in the United States, Milac in 2002 published "Resistance, Imprisonment and Forced Labor," a memoir of his time in the camp and other World War II experiences.

Today in Rab there are only a few scattered traces of the concentration camp.

A series of stone structures built with prison labor have been refurbished and are used as part of a mental asylum.

Grapes and corn grow where the prisoners' tents once stood. And a moss-covered stone tablet by the side of the road reads: "This is the concentration camp where many people lost their lives in terrible circumstances."

Down the road is a larger memorial with individual gravestones and a stainless steel plaque inscribed with hundreds of names.

The memorial was built in 1953 with prison labor from Goli Otok, the island where opponents of the Tito regime were imprisoned in Communist times.

The tragic irony of political prisoners building a monument to victims of Fascism is not lost on Jezernik, the Slovene professor. He said he once interviewed a man who was a prisoner of the Italians in Rab and subsequently a political prisoner at Goli Otok who helped build the monument in Rab.

"He was building a monument to himself," Jezernik said.

Petar Kurelic, a 78-year-old local resident who was born in a house overlooking the camp, said tourists were the main visitors to the memorial these days. Rab, a popular summer resort, is a 20-minute ferry ride from the Croatian mainland.

When he was a teenager, he said, Italian soldiers were alternatively kind and cruel, sometimes offering food to Rab residents, other times beating them or worse.

But today, Kurelic said the wounds have healed and German and Italian tourists are welcome on the island.

"Things change," he said. "The Germans and Italians used to be our enemies and we killed each other. Today we are friends," Kurelic added. "The memories are there, but the hatred is gone."

International Herald Tribune

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DrG
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Re: Slovene & Croat survivors of war camp lament Italy's

#2

Post by DrG » 29 Oct 2003, 23:19

croat wrote:Survivors of war camp lament Italy's amnesia
Probably because of Slovenian and Croatian amnesia of their crimes towards Italians (ethnic cleasing in 1945...do you remember?).
Italy is often portrayed as having been a somewhat benign fascist power during World War II, a reluctant partner of the Nazi regime. The wartime Italian Army is remembered as hapless and inefficient compared to the ruthlessly brutal German war machine.
This is not what the Rab survivors remember.
Strange, given that ing. Morpurgo, chief of the Jewish community in Spalato, wrote this letter to the commander of the camp of Arbe (Rab) in Agu. 1943: "Our correligionaries had the luck of finding, in their misfortune, you as a most human protector. The help yours and of your men will not be forgotten and people protected by you will pray God to give a right reward to the man that has saved them from a calamity that causes horror in every truly human coscience.".
Even the US Holocaust Memorial Museum, wich is far from being benevolent with Nazi-Fascism, tells: "The Italians concentrated Jews on Rab, which protected them from the Germans." Source: http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?ModuleId=10005411 . [Of course in that page you'll find some exagerations, this time about the German lager of San Sabba: the site tells that 5,000 prisoners were killed there, while a Yugoslav historian found only 317 killed, and his list is full of mistakes.]
Or we should read the testimony of Menachem Shelah, who told "The behaivour of Italians towards Slovenians was very severe, but also in this case we have to note that even though Slovenians were enemies for Italian soldiers, they were always treated with less rigour than you might have thought and certainly in a way very far from German brutality."
The Italian colonel in charge of the camp was captured and committed suicide.
This is truly a funny way of telling "history"! Colonel Vincenzo Cuiuli didn't commit suicide: he was hanged by former communist prisoners.
Jezernik said that when he sought files from the Italian national archives in Rome in the 1990's, he was told by officials that most of the documents could not be divulged until 75 years after they were written. This would make them available around 2018.
AFAIK, documents can be divulged after 50 years, not 75.


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concentration camps

#3

Post by SM79Sparviero » 30 Oct 2003, 01:44

Concentration camps in any country were bad places for the prisoners, in USA italian prisoners of black shirts but also raiders of X-MAS, who were quite far from fascist party ( as Regia Marina as a rule was ) were sistematically tortured and deprived of food for their opinions.
War criminals existed in Italian armed forces as in German and Japanese as in Jugoslavian partisan army, but also in US-Navy when PT-boats opened machine gun fire to japanese shipwrecked sailors , or among US-air force fighter pilots in their "strafing" missions on italian territory.

Two questions:- why italian and yugoslavian partisans NEVER attacked and stopped ONE of the trains full of jewish prisoneers directed to german camps, to give freedom to them?i don't think they were difficult targets.Perhaps Tito had not such an interest for the future of many innocent people ( JEWISH people)
-Why italian partisans NEVER attacked San Sabba risiera to free the innocent prisoners?

Berlusconi , as somebody says in Italy "is not stupid ,but intelligent people are different".
His sentences are often exposed to misunderstandings.
After the birth of dictatorship in 1924 political oppositors in italy were punished by tribunal by prison or confination , NEVER by death.Mussolini LEGALLY never killed anybody of them.Antonio Gramsci the first leader of Italian Communist Party dead free in his bed by cerebral hemorrage after two months spent in one of the best italian hospitals for Tubercolar infection, after some years of prison. I can' t be sure that some oppositors were not killed by fascist groups but such an action was considered out of the legality by Gouvernment.

Mussolini confined political oppositors in small villages in calabria, Sicily, Lucania where now you can spend two weeks in expensive vacation villages.
Stalin sent oppositors to Gulag camps in Siberia, where the sun and the beachs are not exactly the same as in southern italy.........

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#4

Post by Octavianus » 30 Oct 2003, 21:41

Ave,
Probably because of Slovenian and Croatian amnesia of their crimes towards Italians (ethnic cleasing in 1945...do you remember?).
What ethnic cleansing? Most of the Italian crimes happened before the post-war purges of 1945, starting from 1920s when Mussolini and his fascist party took the power in Italy. Yet, the Italian juridical system of that time did nothing to prevent these crimes. In fact, in most of the caes, it has actively participated in them. The process of ethnic cleansing of the territory of triest, Görz and Postojna did not start in 1945 like many Italian schoolbooks report inaccurately but it started in 1920s when the fascist party started with the process of "italianization" of Slovene and Croatian population in Istria and the Littoral first by prohibiting to speak in their native languages, then in the ceasement of all cultural, political and economical organizations, reaching the peak in burning down the Slovene Cultural Centre and Library in Triest in 1923. As a result of Italian repression many natives were forced to leave their homes and to emmigrate. Wouldn't you define this as some sort of ethnic cleansing as well? :roll:
Italians towards Slovenians was very severe...
I am just curiuos but does Menachem Shelah in his statement say just how "severe" were the Italians? I guess not.
that even though Slovenians were enemies for Italian soldiers, they were always treated with less rigour than you might have thought and certainly in a way very far from German brutality.
Just how on earth would he know that? Has he perhaps eyewitnessed the treatment of Slovenes by the Germans to compare them with the Italians or is he speaking here by heart?

I find it ironically laughable just how the Italian press and justice system vigorously demanded the extradiction of Erich Priebke for his role in the massacre of some 250 people in the Ardeantin Caves, yet this same press and justice system did not move a finger when it had to clean its own domestic house and bring to the court the Italian generals and prefects in the Provincia di Lubiana for the crimes the Italian troops had committed in this province during the years of occupation or let's say at least for illegal use of gas in Abyssinia. In the bloody year of 1942, Grazioli, Robotti and Roatta ordered the execution of hundreds of - mostly innocent - Slovene and Croatian civilians, mostly because they have found at the wrong time at the wrong place. Not to mention thousands of others who were sent to various camps.
This is truly a funny way of telling "history"! Colonel Vincenzo Cuiuli didn't commit suicide: he was hanged by former communist prisoner.
I have heard both versions of what has happened there, but I am unable to prove which of these two is correct., so I assume you have some strong evidences to prove this version of yours.
AFAIK, documents can be divulged after 50 years, not 75.
It seems to me that someone was lying here. Either this was the Archive in Rome or Mr. Jezernik. :|
raiders of X-MAS, who were quite far from fascist party
You're joking, aren't you? :)
War criminals existed in Italian armed forces as in German and Japanese as in Jugoslavian partisan army, but also in US-Navy when PT-boats opened machine gun fire to japanese shipwrecked sailors , or among US-air force fighter pilots in their "strafing" missions on italian territory.
I wouldn't equalize the US PT boats "massacres" of the Japanese shipwrecked sailors by locking up thousands of civilians in several concentration camps, leaving them there with little or no food and water and no medicines.
why italian and yugoslavian partisans NEVER attacked and stopped ONE of the trains full of jewish prisoneers directed to german camps, to give freedom to them?i don't think they were difficult targets.Perhaps Tito had not such an interest for the future of many innocent people ( JEWISH people)
Probably from the same reason the Italian partisans did not. Just how would you stop a train full of civilians, without not jeopardizing their own lifes? But anyway I recall there were some attempts of partisan activity around the Jasenovac camp, but you have to remember that the Germans and Ustasha always strongly fortified these perimeters for which destruction a guerilla force would need a strong support of mortars and artillery and the partisans did not have that in 1942/43. Only after Italy capitulated in September 1943 the partisans formed their first artillery units from Italian stocks.
Why italian partisans NEVER attacked San Sabba risiera to free the innocent prisoners?
San Sabba is located in Triest, which was harbouring a strong garrison of German and RSI troops in 1944/45. In order to liberate the San Sabba prison the partisans would first need to defeat the triest garrison and to accomplish this task they would definately need tank and artillery support and probably two or three divisions. Only in April/May 1945, with the arrival of motorised units of the 4th Yugoslav Army, were the partisans able to penetrate through the city's defence.
Mussolini confined political oppositors in small villages in calabria, Sicily, Lucania where now you can spend two weeks in expensive vacation villages.
Funny. Hitler and Himmler came out with a similar statement when they sent their first batch of political opponents to Dachau in 1930s. And from what I have read the Slovene and Croatian political opponents were not send on any of the expensive family resorts in Sicily or Calabria, but mostly to Ponza and Tremiti Islands.
Antonio Gramsci the first leader of Italian Communist Party dead free in his bed by cerebral hemorrage after two months spent in one of the best italian hospitals for Tubercolar infection, after some years of prison.
I thought only the communists can come out with such an amazing story, but I guess I was wrong. First they put him in prison and then the same state who put him in a cell paid him a costly treatment in one of Italy's best hospitals? Get serious. We are not talking about 1990s. :roll:

Gratiam,

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#5

Post by DrG » 30 Oct 2003, 23:00

Octavianus wrote:Ave
Ave
What ethnic cleansing?
This incredible! Apalling! Have you ever heard of the 300,000 Italians that had to leave Istria in 1945?!?! And that hypocritical article was about the Italian "amnesia"! By the way, the presence of Yugoslavs in Italian camps is well known, and already in 1998 the important newspaper "Corriere della Sera" made a series of articles about this fact that caused an open debate on this topic.
As a result of Italian repression many natives were forced to leave their homes and to emmigrate. Wouldn't you define this as some sort of ethnic cleansing as well? :roll:
No, it wasn't ethnic cleasing, because your alleged mass emigration happened only in your fantasy. The Slav population in Venezia Giulia (now Western part of Slovenia) increased between the 2 World Wars, both numerically and as percentage. While we cannot say the same of what happened to Italians after WW2. Or is Capodistria (oh, so sorry, Koper) still full of Italians?
I am just curiuos but does Menachem Shelah in his statement say just how "severe" were the Italians? I guess not. Just how on earth would he know that? Has he perhaps eyewitnessed the treatment of Slovenes by the Germans to compare them with the Italians or is he speaking here by heart?
He witnessed both the treatements.
But if we shouldn't believe this man, we might read the words of bishop Ivo Bottacci, who visited the camp of Arbe (Rab): "In the camp in the island of Arbe many of the internee had declared that they didn't want to return to their origin places but of wanting to stay with Italians because they had never been so well." Of course, during cold seasons or during epidemies, the situation was far worse, but these are the words of a Catholic bishop in his report about the situation of interned people in Italy.
Ah, by the way, do you know that in other camps (not in Arbe, AFAIK) there weren't only people that had been interned, but also people that had asked to be protected by Italy? In the camp of Gonars half of the internees were anti-communist Slovenians that had asked to be protected there. Maybe now they claim they had been treated badly.
I find it ironically laughable just how the Italian press and justice system vigorously demanded the extradiction of Erich Priebke for his role in the massacre of some 250 people in the Ardeantin Caves, yet this same press and justice system did not move a finger when it had to clean its own domestic house and bring to the court the Italian generals and prefects in the Provincia di Lubiana for the crimes the Italian troops had committed in this province during the years of occupation or let's say at least for illegal use of gas in Abyssinia. In the bloody year of 1942, Grazioli, Robotti and Roatta ordered the execution of hundreds of - mostly innocent - Slovene and Croatian civilians, mostly because they have found at the wrong time at the wrong place. Not to mention thousands of others who were sent to various camps.
I agree: it was an idiocy to ask the extradition of Priebke. But more idiotic are those people that remember only the crimes of foreign nations and carefully forget their own. But of course no ethnic cleasing happened after WW2, no Italians were murdered and thrown in large caves (foibe) and no Italians were starved to death in Yugoslav camps. It's undeniable that thousands of Slovenes and Croatians had been closed in concentration camps (that, I underline, hadn't the aim of killing them, but only of imprisoning them), and that many of them died. But it's undeniable that they had been sent in camps because they had helped partizans, also against pro-Italian Slovenians (gen. Leon Rupnik was mayor of Lubiana since the summer of 1942, and thousands of Slovenians cooperated with Italy). While what was the crime of Italians murdered at the end of WW2?
raiders of X-MAS, who were quite far from fascist party
You're joking, aren't you? :)
Here I reply for Sparviero. He was talking about the men of X-MAS before 8 Sept. 1943, that, as you should know, was a small special unit made for commando actions. Some of its members followed Borghese in the RSI, but some also followed Durand De La Penne with the King and the Allies. The pre-RSI X-MAS was completely apolitical.
Mussolini confined political oppositors in small villages in calabria, Sicily, Lucania where now you can spend two weeks in expensive vacation villages.
Funny. Hitler and Himmler came out with a similar statement when they sent their first batch of political opponents to Dachau in 1930s. And from what I have read the Slovene and Croatian political opponents were not send on any of the expensive family resorts in Sicily or Calabria, but mostly to Ponza and Tremiti Islands.
Needless to say that Ponza and Tremiti are beautiful islands loved by tourists, what do you think are they?
Antonio Gramsci the first leader of Italian Communist Party dead free in his bed by cerebral hemorrage after two months spent in one of the best italian hospitals for Tubercolar infection, after some years of prison.
I thought only the communists can come out with such an amazing story, but I guess I was wrong. First they put him in prison and then the same state who put him in a cell paid him a costly treatment in one of Italy's best hospitals? Get serious. We are not talking about 1990s. :roll:
Your ignorance is simply amazing!!!!! If you don't know what are you talking about, just avoid talking about it! Antonio Gramsci was sent in prison while he was already a bit ill (he suffered of tubercolosis since his youth), then, when his illness worsened (of course also because of the jail) he was sent in the hospital "Quisisana", one of the best of Rome.
But the story of his brother Mario is rather different. He became an important member of the Fascist party, and was captured at the end of WW2. He was sent in an Australian PoW camp, where got ill (he didn't suffer of some illness as Antonio) and died.
Thus, what was worse? The Fascist jail, that caused the death of an already ill man, or the Australian, where died a healthy man?
Gratiam
Aeterne vale.

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#6

Post by DrG » 30 Oct 2003, 23:35

Octavianus wrote:The process of ethnic cleansing of the territory of triest, Görz and Postojna did not start in 1945 like many Italian schoolbooks report inaccurately but it started in 1920s when the fascist party started with the process of "italianization" of Slovene and Croatian population in Istria and the Littoral first by prohibiting to speak in their native languages, then in the ceasement of all cultural, political and economical organizations, reaching the peak in burning down the Slovene Cultural Centre and Library in Triest in 1923.
Ah, by the way, I suggest you again to avoid talking about what you don't know. The harsh treatement of minorities happened during fascism is perfectly known in Italy, and teached in schools. I'd like to suggest you to check your sources, given that the Hotel Balkan, the Slovenian "Narodni Dom" of Trieste, was burned on 13 July 1920 after that an Italian fascist had been killed during a demonstration. And for the ceasement of Slav organizations, this happened also to Italian not-fascist organizations. Yours weren't the only victims.
But of course we Italian don't know our history, unlike Slovenians who simply forget that their communists murdered some thousands of Italians causing an exodus from Istria... :roll:

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Allen Milcic
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#7

Post by Allen Milcic » 30 Oct 2003, 23:58

Greetings DrG and other contributors:

My posting of the article (and I stress that this is a copy of an article from the International Herald Tribune, and not my words) was for discussion and general interest purposes, and not to start-off a war of words between Italians and Croats/Slovenes, or anyone else. I hope that cooler heads can prevail, and that we can talk about the issues raised in a friendly and calm manner, rather than allowing our blood to boil and end up yelling at each-other unproductively.

That being said, please allow me to lay out my thoughts and positions on the matters raised, and I look forward to seeing any and all reasonable responses:

1. There can be no excuses for what occurred to the Italian minority in certain areas of the then Yugoslav state, though I am uncertain of the sheer numbers of persons affected. I know, accept, and feel terrible about the actions of "Yugoslav" troops towards Italians, and for what it's worth I apologize for that emphatically. The fact that these same troops killed a plethora of Croatians, Slovenes and many others is not an excuse, but perhaps can mitigate the circumstances somewhat in the eyes of today's Italians looking at these crimes.
2. Amnesia by some within today's Croatia and Slovenia (whose governments, one must concede, had absolutely nothing to do with the crimes of immediate post-WW2 Yugoslavia) should not be used as an excuse for not speaking out against or investigating one's own actions. Just as there are no excuses for the deaths of Italians in 1945, there can be no excuses for the invasion of sovereign lands, nor for the creation of concentration camps where inmates were severely mistreated. Perhaps if we all start from the positions of "mea culpa" for the things that WE were perpetrators of, then we will soon receive a positive response from the other side as well. I hope that we cannot continue hating each-other forever, we share so many things in common, and can only benefit from friendly relations.
3. There is no such thing as "kind of brutal"; what the Italians were doing on Rab and elsewhere was WRONG, and there are no levels to this. Comparisons to Germans and their actions are irrelevant - reprehensible and criminal actions are just that, nothing more, nothing less.
4. I do not know Colonel Cuiuli's fate, I was not there to witness it, nor have I spoken to anyone who was. The "history" of his death was a direct quote from the article I posted, and the writer did not provide a source. If anyone has alternate information on this case, then I would appreciate a correction with a source to substantiate it - sarcasm does nothing to prove one's case. I am open to knowledge and new information, if properly presented.
5. The article stated 75 years for the release of information; I would like to know where the 75 or 50 year limitation can be confirmed. Any suggestions or official confirmation is appreciated.

My kindest and respectful regards to all.

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#8

Post by Locke » 31 Oct 2003, 01:02

DrG wrote:No, it wasn't ethnic cleasing, because your alleged mass emigration happened only in your fantasy. The Slav population in Venezia Giulia (now Western part of Slovenia) increased between the 2 World Wars, both numerically and as percentage. While we cannot say the same of what happened to Italians after WW2. Or is Capodistria (oh, so sorry, Koper) still full of Italians?


Italy got the Western part of Slovenia after WWI. And the Fascists started to repress Slovenians by not allowing them to talk in their language and by "italianiznig" them by force.

And yes, we are sorry for Slovenian warcrimes and we start to recognize those crimes, altough they had been hidden in communism.

About Koper - which rights have Italian minority in Slovenia and which have Slovenian minority in Italy - I'm talking about bilingual inscriptions all over Slovenian coast - I haven't seen so many in Trst...

And an interesting link:

http://www.zrs-kp.si/konferenca/govoric ... enka_T.htm (Scroll down to english text)

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#9

Post by DrG » 31 Oct 2003, 01:35

I wish to thank both Croat and Locke.
I agree with what was told by Croat, except for his point 3: the treatment of people in various camps wasn't the same, I think it's impossible to compare the conditions of internees in some German lagers (not to talk about Gulags) with those of even the worst Italian camp (Rab), and I think the numbers (both percentage of deaths and total numer of internees) demonstrate it. And for the reprisals, they were terrible, but they weren't gratuit cruelty: they were made because of attacks by partizans. I've already read in this forums the (hot) discussions about the legitimation of reprisals, and I don't want to open a can of worms. But, if this can make a difference, I underline that Italy, unlike Germany, declared war on Yugoslavia before attacking it, thus making, AFAIK, legal the occupation. But I'm not a lawyer. :wink:
I've read the link by Locke, it tells more or less what is told in our books, except for the numbers (here in Italy 2,000 deaths is considered too low for the total, included all Istria, while is more than fair for Trieste and Gorizia, in other words the area that was investigated by Slovene historians).
About the 75 years of secrecy for documents, it's only for documents about strictly personal topics (like the personal diaries of Clara Petacci, the mistress of Mussolini), while state documents are all free after 50 years. And I underline that studies on Arbe/Rab had been published since the end of WW2, and also recently (more accurate, thanks to the full documents).
The total number of inmates died in Arbe was 1,276 (source: Alberto Ballarini, Mihael Sobolevski "Le vittime di nazionalità italiana a Fiume e dintorni (1939 - 1947)", Ministero dei Beni Culturali, 2002).
About the death of col. Cuiuli, my reply was sarcastic (now that I've read Croat's and Locke's posts I'm sorry) because of the tone of the article (that, you'll agree, is one-sided and based on the false assumption of Italian "amnesia"), but from all my sources I've found that he was killed, not that he committed suicide.
For the lack of a trial for Italian criminals after WW2, it didn't took place both because Italy had joined the Allies (by the way, those that were more implicated in the reprisals -criminal or not- were also those that decided to surrender and then to join the Allies), both because of the Yugoslav crimes that happened in 1945 and that were not followed by trials. In other words: you don't put on trial my criminals, and I don't put on trial yours. Wrong but pragmatic.

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#10

Post by Octavianus » 31 Oct 2003, 02:47

Ave!
This incredible! Apalling! Have you ever heard of the 300,000 Italians that had to leave Istria in 1945?!?!
Actually I have always wondered how it is possible that more people left Istria than there were living in it in 1945? Care to explain? :roll:
By the way, the presence of Yugoslavs in Italian camps is well known, and already in 1998 the important newspaper "Corriere della Sera" made a series of articles about this fact that caused an open debate on this topic.
And? What conclusions did you draw from that debate? Did you launch any legal prosecutions against the people who were responsible for the creation of these camps? Have you offered any financial compensations to the Slovene and Croatian victims for the loss of their property and the time they have spent in the camps (*)? Has your government maybe appologised for these crimes or at least issued a statement in which they condemned these acts of violence? :roll:
The Slav population
Who are they? :roll:
No, it wasn't ethnic cleasing, because your alleged mass emigration happened only in your fantasy.
Good argument. :wink:
The Slav population in Venezia Giulia (now Western part of Slovenia) increased between the 2 World Wars, both numerically and as percentage.
Aha. Interesting theory. This would then put the Italians in an extremly inferior position and it would also make the London agreement dubious concerning that the main reason for these territories being annexed to Italy was that the official Rome wanted to free the numerous Italian population from Austriaci.
While we cannot say the same of what happened to Italians after WW2. Or is Capodistria (oh, so sorry, Koper) still full of Italians?
Many Italians moved to Italy and settled there. There is still a signficant number of Italians living in Koper. The city is also the seat and cultural centre of the Italian minority in Slovenia.

Don't know exactly what you tried to imply by your ironic statament here, but as far as I have read various Slovene, Italian and Austrian historical books it was never disputed that the coastal cities of Koper, Piran, Izola and Portorose always had Italian majority until 1945. The "problem" lies in that that as soon as you have left the city gates and walked on the countryside the Italian majority melted because the countryside surrounding the cities was almost exclusively Slovene or Croat. The original Slovene coast, that is the coastaline, which was originally populated by the ancestors of Slovenes, is the coast that is today stretching from Monfalcone to Muggia (minus Triest). This area was left due to known circumstances so instead of that the area between Koper-Portorose was given to Slovenia.
He witnessed both the treatements.
Care to fill us with some more details where exactly did he eyewitness that? :roll:
But if we shouldn't believe this man, we might read the words of bishop Ivo Bottacci, who visited the camp of Arbe (Rab): "In the camp in the island of Arbe many of the internee had declared that they didn't want to return to their origin places but of wanting to stay with Italians because they had never been so well." Of course, during cold seasons or during epidemies, the situation was far worse, but these are the words of a Catholic bishop in his report about the situation of interned people in Italy.
When international Red Cross delegations visited some German and croatian concentration camps (Theresienstadt and Jasenovac, I think) they Germans and Croats always make sure that the delegates were full of praise about their caring care for the internees. I find the bishop's statement extremly laughable. There were no barracks on Rab Island. If you have ever experienced a windy storm on Rab island, then you will know what I am talking about. The internees were living in small tents with little or no food and water. The sanitarium and health services were almost non-existent. People dropped dead like flies. I suggest you to visit a cemetery on Rab Island where all the names of all internees who had died there are engraved on a large stone. many of them were infants or children who died of malnurition. The list is by my humble opiniona bit too long for something what was characterized by your primer minister as a "vacation resort". I don't know how you are you dealing with this in Italy today, but the custom is that "tourists" survive their "holidays".
Ah, by the way, do you know that in other camps (not in Arbe, AFAIK) there weren't only people that had been interned, but also people that had asked to be protected by Italy? In the camp of Gonars half of the internees were anti-communist Slovenians that had asked to be protected there. Maybe now they claim they had been treated badly.
I have never heard of any anti-communist Slovenes asking the Italians to protect them by sending them to Gonars or Visco. However it is interestingly that in these camps were sent mostly those Slovenes who were anti-communist by their political belief, while many communists were freed almost immediately. There has been some roumour that the Co of the Carabinieri in Ljubljana was a former communist himself and this could also explain how come that partisans and some high-ranking Italians got so quickly fraternized with each other after capitulation in September 1943.
I agree: it was an idiocy to ask the extradition of Priebke. But more idiotic are those people that remember only the crimes of foreign nations and carefully forget their own. But of course no ethnic cleasing happened after WW2, no Italians were murdered and thrown in large caves (foibe) and no Italians were starved to death in Yugoslav camps.
Don't know if you know this but since 1991 many books about communist crimes have been published in Slovenia. It is true that most of them are dedicated to Bleiburg, teharje and Kocevski Rog, where mostly German, Slovene, croatian and Serbian prisoners-of-war have been executed, but some of them also deal with the executions of Italian RSI POWs in 1945.

On the other hand I'm still waiting for a similar book to find on Italian bookshelves. :roll:

There is one more thing that needed to be said about the so-called foibe massacres. The people who were killed in them were not just Italians. If I am not mistaken a large number of Germans and Slovene bodies were also thrown in those caves. I recall seeing the footage where some of the bodies were still having remants of a German uniform on them. There is also needed to get some things cleared. The people who were taken there and executed were not "ordinary civilians" if I may use such expression, but they were those public figures who the communists considered to be hostile towards their ideology and could represent a potential threat to their authority. Only a few of them were Fascists, while most of them were the supporters or officials of the CLN and other democratic political parties.
As I understood this matter the list and decision to execute them was made between Yugoslav and Italian communists, who more than willingly helped the Yugoslav OZNA detachments to carry out these shameful acts.

Same happened to us here in Kärnten after the "Einmarsch" of the Yugoslav partisans in Mai 1945. In the first two weeks of the occupation more than 236 people were arrested and secretly taken to Yugoslavia from where only a dozen of them managed to return back. Most of them were Social-Democrats, Socialists and Christian Democrats by their political belief. Only a small number of them were active Nazis. Same pattern was also followed in Slovenia in 1945-1950 (Dachau Process).

So that there won't be any misunderstanding: These acts were not taken only because those people were Italians by their nationality, cause if this would be true that hundreds if not thousands of Italians would have to be executed since many of them fought in Slovenia as partisans at that time, but because of their political belief and because the CPY and CPI concluded that they might stand on their way when they (the communists) will take the power.
While what was the crime of Italians murdered at the end of WW2?
I repeat once again: They were not killed because of their nationality but because they stand for democratic valueswhich the communists despised just like the fascists and nazis did. You won't therefore find many (if any) women or children in the foibas but mosty executed POWs and political opponents. And yes, most of them were Italian by nationality.
Here I reply for Sparviero. He was talking about the men of X-MAS before 8 Sept. 1943, that, as you should know, was a small special unit made for commando actions. Some of its members followed Borghese in the RSI, but some also followed Durand De La Penne with the King and the Allies. The pre-RSI X-MAS was completely apolitical.
I personally find it extremly naive to talk and think that Graf Junio Borghese and his men that followed him, were being "completely apolitical" on 7 September 1943 and then all of a sudden becoming "completely political" on 8 September 1943. Their decision was based on political circumstances.
Needless to say that Ponza and Tremiti are beautiful islands loved by tourists, what do you think are they?
Today it may be truth of what you say, but were they also "beautiful islands loved by tourists" in 1920s and 1930s?
Antonio Gramsci was sent in prison while he was already a bit ill (he suffered of tubercolosis since his youth), then, when his illness worsened (of course also because of the jail) he was sent in the hospital "Quisisana", one of the best of Rome.
So let me get this straight. Mussolini has sent Gramsci into a prison although he knew that he was seriously ill and that he could as well die in a prison?!? :roll: Won't be more rational to put him in a house arrest if he was really such a pain in the ass to him?
But the story of his brother Mario is rather different. He became an important member of the Fascist party, and was captured at the end of WW2. He was sent in an Australian PoW camp, where got ill (he didn't suffer of some illness as Antonio) and died. Thus, what was worse? The Fascist jail, that caused the death of an already ill man, or the Australian, where died a healthy man?
A wonderful argument. No doubt about that. I suggest you to sue Australia. :lol: But before going on to a next topic I am curious what sort of disease did Mario (or Duke D'Aosta in Kenya) have that has caused their deaths?
Aeterne vale.
Hic splendidus! Oras lingua Latina?
The harsh treatement of minorities happened during fascism is perfectly known in Italy, and teached in schools.
Can you give me some examples which Italian history school books mention this?
I'd like to suggest you to check your sources, given that the Hotel Balkan, the Slovenian "Narodni Dom" of Trieste, was burned on 13 July 1920 after that an Italian fascist had been killed during a demonstration.
It was 1920 indeed. My mistake. My finger slipped to number 2 instead of 0. When you will be in my age you will often encounter such difficulties.

So you admit that the fascists had burned down the Slovenian "Narodni dom"? That's great because in the past some of the post-fascist nationalistic groups in Triest had even difficulties to admit that.
And for the ceasement of Slav organizations
Slav organizations? Who's that?
And for the ceasement of Slav organizations, this happened also to Italian not-fascist organizations. Yours weren't the only victims.
I agree. But did the fascists prohibit those anti-fascists to speak Italian? Have they stripped them of all their rights? Did they "italianize" their surnames because they were too "barbaric" and thus unworthy to live in the Great Italy? Were their children severly beaten by (Italian) teachers because they during the launch time spoke Slovene and not Italian? Come one. What sort of "democracy" is this?
But of course we Italian don't know our history, unlike Slovenians who simply forget that their communists murdered some thousands of Italians causing an exodus from Istria...
Well, it is true that I myself am from Austria but I spent a lot of my time in Slovenia, where my wife has her family and most of the relation, so I can tell you that you that many Slovenes know a lot about the communist post-war crimes against not only their own people but also against other nationalities. There are also people who are trying to reach the bottom of all this for many years. They even have a magazine. However the official Slovene government refused to go into details, what is understandably because two major political parties (LDS and ZLSD) that are forming the today's Slovene government had emerged from the former Slovene Communist Party and are understandably not much keen to get the truth served on a plate. It is however interestingly that they have in this a complete support of the Italian national minority in Slovenia and on top of that two of the most influential members of ZLSD are - believe ir or not - the Italians by nationality. Now that's a contradiction, wouldn't you say so? :wink:

Gratiam,

Octavianus

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DrG
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#11

Post by DrG » 31 Oct 2003, 03:46

Octavianus wrote:Ave!
Ave!
Actually I have always wondered how it is possible that more people left Istria than there were actually living in 1945? Care to explain? :roll:
Because you ignore that in Venezia Giulia there were 1,697,000 inhabitants in 1936, by 1945 they were certainly not less. 300,000 refugees out of about 1,200,000 that had to live in Yugoslavia isn't an exageration.
And? What conclusions did you draw from that debate? Did you launch any legal prosecutions against the people who were responsible for the creation of these camps? Have you offered any financial compensations to the Slovene and Croatian victims for the loss of their property and the time they have spent in the camps (*)? Has your government maybe appologised for these crimes or at least issued a statement in which they condemned these acts of violence? :roll:
The men involved had already died many years before. And yes, my govern had apologized some years ago.
The Slav population
Who are they? :roll:
Are you kidding? Aren't Slovenes and Croatians Slavs? Explain your unseful sarcasm, please.
Aha. Interesting theory. This would then put the Italians in an extremly inferior position and it would also make the London agreement dubious concerning that the main reason for these territories being annexed to Italy was that the official Rome wanted to free the numerous Italian population from Austriaci.
Ah, my God! Why don't you a go a bit more offtopic! By the way the annexion of the inland area of Venezia Giulia was justified by military reasons, not by ethnic as for the coast.
And my theory is a FACT. I don't want to waste my time with a poor ignorant like you, but I might copy the percentages of Slav population in Venezia Giulia in each municipality as found by the census of 1921 and of 1936 and show you that it increased (by the way, this fact was kept secret because Fascism didn't want this).
Don't know exactly what you tried to imply by your ironic statament here, but as far as I have read various Slovene, Italian and Austrian historical books it was never disputed that the coastal cities of Koper, Piran, Izola and Portorose always had Italian majority until 1945. The "problem" lies in that that as soon as you have left the city gates and walked on the countryside the Italian majority melted because the countryside surrounding the cities was almost exclusively Slovene or Croat. The original Slovene coast, that is the coastaline, which was originally populated by the ancestors of Slovenes, is the coast that is today stretching from Monfalcone to Muggia (minus Triest). This area was left due to known circumstances so instead of that the area between Koper-Portorose was given to Slovenia.
And of course that countryside was very inhabited! Do you know the difference between a town and the country? "In a town live a lot of people, in a country live less people.", it's ininfluential where did they live, the important fact is that the percentage of Italians dropped after WW2, because of the mass exodus caused by communists.
When international Red Cross delegations visited some German and croatian concentration camps (Theresienstadt and Jasenovac, I think) they Germans and Croats always make sure that the delegates were full of praise about their caring care for the internees. I find the bishop's statement extremly laughable.
OK, OK. As usual you're right. We must believe what was told by a former internee who maybe wants to make a bit of money with his book, and trash every other testimony. I might post some testimonies of Yugoslav prisoners in other camps, but why waste my time: they weren't in Arbe (good consideration) and Octavianus wouldn't accept their words because of one of his very own reasons.
I have never heard of any anti-communist Slovenes asking the Italians to protect them by sending them to Gonars or Visco. However it is interestingly that in these camps were sent mostly those Slovenes who were anti-communist by their political belief, while many communists were freed almost immediately. There has been some roumour that the Co of the Carabinieri in Ljubljana was a former communist himself and this could also explain how come that partisans and some high-ranking Italians got so quickly fraternized with each other after capitulation in September 1943.
Mhm, so at first you say that Italians were evil fascists that killed Slovenes, and now are (as usual evil) communists! Outstanding! I'd like to know why I'm wasting my time with you. By the way, prisoners in Italian camps were: "repressivi" (those that were true internee" and "protettivi" (those anti-communists that had to be protected), but not surprisingly you ignored it.
Don't know if you know this but since 1991 many books about communist crimes have been published in Slovenia. It is true that most of them are dedicated to Bleiburg, teharje and Kocevski Rog, where mostly German, Slovene, croatian and Serbian prisoners-of-war have been executed, but some of them also deal with the executions of Italian RSI POWs in 1945.
Thanks for the info, I supposed this from the good post of Locke, but certainly not by yours.
On the other hand I'm still waiting for a similar book to find on Italian bookshelves. :roll:
The book I've quoted in my last post is an example, but you have only to go to a library of the ANPI an you'll find dozens. But I'd like to know how you'll read them....or you speak Italian?
There is one more thing that needed to be said about the so-called foibe massacres. The people who were killed in them were not just Italians. If I am not mistaken a large number of Germans and Slovene bodies were also thrown in those caves. I recall seeing the footage where some of the bodies were still having remants of a German uniform on them. There is also needed to get some things cleared. The people who were taken there and executed were not "ordinary civilians" if I may use such expression, but they were those public figures who the communists considered to be hostile towards their ideology and could represent a potential threat to their authority. Only a few of them were Fascists, while most of them were the supporters or officials of the CLN and other democratic political parties.
As I understood this matter the list and decision to execute them was made between Yugoslav and Italian communists, who more than willingly helped the Yugoslav OZNA detachments to carry out these shameful acts.
I know perfectly that they weren't only Italians, while I disagree about the fact that "they weren't ordinary civilians". Many of them were even women! About the Italian commies, only a tiny minority helped Yugoslavs, and then fled in Yugoslavia. Where of course they were not put on trial for their crimes, but you haven't problems for this fact, it seems... :roll:
I personally find it extremly naive to talk and think that Graf Junio Borghese and his men that followed him, were being "completely apolitical" on 7 September 1943 and then all of a sudden becoming "completely political" on 8 September 1943. Their decision was based on political circumstances.
Besides the fact that this is offtopic, and that Sparviero was talking about the treatement of some Italia prisoners taken by the Allies; but you're wrong. The decision of Borghese (who was a Prince, not a count: as usual you talk about things you ignore) wasn't political (he never joined the Fascist Party, and on 8 Sept. he felt the Italian armistice as a treason towards Germany, it had nothing to do with Fascism).
Today it may be truth of what you say, but were they also "beautiful islands loved by tourists" in 1920s and 1930s?
Yes, they were already beautiful and with an excellent weather (you know, these things don't chance in 60 years...).
So let me get this straight. Mussolini has sent Gramsci into a prison although he knew that he was seriously ill and that he could as well die in a prison?!? :roll: Won't be more rational to put him in a house arrest if he was really such a pain in the ass to him?
When Gramsci was put in prison he wasn't seriously ill. When his illness worsened, he was sent in an excellent hospital. It's not so difficult to understand it, except for you...:roll:
But before going on to a next topic I am curious what sort of disease did Mario (or Duke D'Aosta in Kenya) have that has caused their deaths?
The Duke of Aosta, AFAIK, died of malaria, while I don't know for Mario Gramsci.
Hic splendidus! Oras lingua Latina?
Loquor. Italici magistri historia atque Latinum docunt, tui solum sermonem Romae.
Can you give me some examples which Italian history school books mention this?
I've studied it in my high school, now I don't want to waste my time to find my old book and tell you the title. If you don't trust me, well, amen. The simple fact that I know what happened should be a proof...
So you admit that the fascists had burned down the Slovenian "Narodni dom"? That's great because in the past some of the post-fascist nationalistic groups in Triest had even difficulties to admit that.
Oh my God! Are you a member of the Inquisition? "DrG, if you want to save your soul, admit the sins of fascists again!" :D Yes, I admit it without problems. If those Italians you spoke to didn't admit it, they were ignorants. I would like to see you "talking" with them... what a kind family.... :roll:
And for the ceasement of Slav organizations
Slav organizations? Who's that?
This idiocy about the word "Slav" wasn't funny the first time, the second even less. You're childish.
But did the fascists prohibit those anti-fascists to speak Italian? Have they stripped them of all their rights? Did they "italianize" their surnames because they were too "barbaric" and thus unworthy to live in the Great Italy? Were their children severly beaten by (Italian) teachers because they during the launch time spoke Slovene and not Italian? Come one. What sort of "democracy" is this?
Hey, and whenever Slavs were prohibited to talk in their language! Tell this idiocy to somebody else. Slav languages were banned from pubblic offices, but they were allowed to speak whatever language elsewhere. Needless to say that France made the same in Corsica with Italian and Britain in Malta (where Italian was the language in tribunals untill 1935). But we don't make a tragedy for this.
For the surnames, they were sometimes Italianized, yes, just like the surnames of Italian emigrants were often Frenchized (like Cezanne: his true surname was Cesana) or Anglicized. Ok, not good, but not a tragedy!
About teachers, they beaten children without good reasons everywhere! My god, it's a pity no teacher was sentenced to death by an International War Crimes Tribunal. :D
Ah, by the way, in what book written by a mental-ill author you've read that Fascist Italy was a democracy? :roll:
It is however interestingly that the ex-commies have by this a complete support from the Italian national minority and on top of that two of most influential members of ZLSD are - believe ir or not - the Italians by nationality. Now that's a contradiction, wouldn't you say so? :wink:
No, if you knew that many Italians that stood in Yugoslavia were the communist ones. But you ignore it....:roll:
Gratiam
Aeterne vale.

PS I've already spent too much time with you. Thus, I'll not go on repying to your provocations, and I leave you to your wife, who must be almost perfect given that she has turned you into the worst Slovenian nationalist I've ever met. Thanks God there are people like Locke!

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Allen Milcic
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Tempers

#12

Post by Allen Milcic » 31 Oct 2003, 17:01

Good day gentlemen:

Just when it appeared that we were heading in the direction of a calm, productive discussion, things went downhill again. I know that the actions of the past, especially when persons in our own families were affected by them, can be cause for tempers to flare, but I would ask that, for the sake of productive conversation, we try to reign in our anger, be polite, and exchange facts and opinions without the personal attacks. Octavianus and DrG, you are both knowledgeable and educated gentlemen, I have learned much from your postings, and I hope to offer some insight and information in return; if we can keep the sarcasm and insults out of our exchanges, I think we can all benefit.

Unfortunately, I will not have the time to provide further information on this topic till the weekend (yes, life gets in the way of living :? ), but will try and provide a comprehensive posting on saturday or sunday. Till then, I bid you all a respectful farewell.

Octavianus - both the Croats and the Slovenes are Southern Slavs, which I am sure you know. I do not think that DrG was using the term "Slavs" in any derogatory context, I think it is just a simplified way of saying "Croats and Slovenes and other minorities of Slavic origin".

Regards to one and all.

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Locke
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#13

Post by Locke » 02 Nov 2003, 14:10

Yesterday was a commemoration in Gonars near Gorica/Gorizia, at the camp memorial. Chairman of Slovenian parliament made a speech about the victims and the Italian representative condemned Berlusconi's statements about fascism.
About 400 Slovenians died in Gonars during WWII. (I don't know the number of Croatian victims.)
In brief:http://www.gzs.si/eng/news/sbw/head.asp?idc=8975

Regards,
Polona

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kevin
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Italian War Crimes

#14

Post by kevin » 02 Nov 2003, 22:40

I am not well informed about atrocities committed by Italian forces in the Balkans, but it is a well known fact that the Italians committed atrocities in Africa, namely in Libya and in Ethiopia. To my knowledge no compensdation was ever paid to either of the two countries, a fact still lamented by Libya in the 1980s.

gabriel pagliarani
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#15

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 03 Nov 2003, 16:01

About the amnesia of italian governments I can agree with all the people in this thread: if Italian Governments during 60 years had forgotten to pay anything to italians (f.e. 300000 rejected by Yugos) why they must remember to pay something to the foe or his heir? :lol: Cry now..cry..
Octavianus , do you remember Andretti the famous F1 pilot winner at Indianapolis with a Ferrari? He was 1/300000 Yugos italian speaking rejected: he could be the 1st Yugo F1 champion of the world instead being an American champ... also Nobel prize Carlo Rubbia was 1 of those 300000 repelled by Tito. This only the smaller part of the treasure lost. Ethnic cleaning was done by everybody in the Balkans, Italians, Serbs, Turks, Austrians, Hungarians, Skipetari, Roms, Slovenes and Croats. I have forgotten someone? Redskins were in former Yugo or not? :lol: Consequently, pls DON'T CRY MORE! A bit of dignity, pls. In Balkans killers and victims are the same stuff.
DISGRATIAM

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