Overview of proposed operations from sea lion?

[harry6116]

thank you all.
your post have been extremely helpful.
thanks again

Michael

[YM]

Without going into all the intricate details of the proposed Sea Lion operation, Chuchill stated that he was certain that the Germans wouldn't attempt an invasion. He was so certain of this that he managed to convince the War Cabinet to send tanks
to the Middle East during the time of the greatest threat at the time of the Battle of Britain.

[harry6116]

churchill had a way with words. i think he was right on this.

[flakbait]

The points made are valid, namely, GUARENTEED air SUPREMICY (NOT `superiority`) at least over the German invasion fleet as well as the landing beaches was an absolute requirement just as it was over Normandy less than 4 yrs later. The Germans gave little thought to the necessary prolonged good weather window to not only land, but to successfully resupply the invading troops- keep in mind the storms shortly after the Allied Normandy beach heads. And lacking the Mulberry system of creating a PAIR of artificial harbors for supplying them, this made capturing a harbor or better yet a port INTACT of paramount importance...assuming the British wouldn`t blow it to Kingdom Come 1st, just out of spite...

[harry6116]

It's the threat of the British navy as well. The Germans simply did not have a Navy that could make a real difference. Even if they could've diverted the British fleet out of the English Channel they still have the problem of destroying it. This may be a simplistic view but I think the German navy did not do that well in the Norwegian campaign in terms of overall losses. They did not have a big fleet of battleships to start with but after Norway in terms of this they were decimated. just as in world war I the Germans were hesitant to use what ships they did have take the turpits, what a waste of time and money.

[flakbait]

Do keep in mind that while the Royal Navy was significantly larger and more capable that this was the period less than 5 months after Dunkirk; many RN destroyers while still afloat were either undergoing major repair or still awaiting major repairs not just from direct hits but from repeated "near miss" concussion hull damage. At least 1/6th of on hand destroyers in Portsmouth and Dover were either barely able to get underway or were in fact basically crippled in 1 form of the other; several were towed back from Dunkirk, 1 barely still afloat. Plus more than a couple more of the survivors were also recently crippled by the German`s still increasing mine offensive. IF it came right down to it, every hull available that could sail WOULD attack, but perhaps a dozen or so at that time frame it would have been at a crawl at best...perhaps half a dozen in the yards wouldn`t be sea worthy enough to.

[harry6116]

that does make things more interesting.

[ljadw]

To have a chance,the Germans needed the following (ALL of them)


1)Air superiority,which they didn't have

2)A transport fleet ,who couldn't make it

3)War ships which they didn't have

4)Airborne units to capture harbours,which did not exist

5) Good weather for several weeks which was impossible

[harry6116]

love that post.

[mescal]

Do keep in mind that while the Royal Navy was significantly larger and more capable that this was the period less than 5 months after Dunkirk; many RN destroyers while still afloat were either undergoing major repair or still awaiting major repairs

The Royal Navy lost the following destroyers in May & June 1940 in Home Waters (not all Dynamo-related) :
Valentine, Wakeful, Wessex, Whitley, Grafton, Grenade, Basilisk, Keith, Havant
That's 9 ships - basically the same number as the German losses in Norway, but instead of 50% of the initial force, it represents only 5.5% of the RN destroyer strength at the beginning of May (and if one wants to restrict the sample to the UK-based destroyers, it's 9%.)

As for the damaged ships :
26 destroyers suffered damage that led to one or more months of unavailabilityin May & June
(Sabre, Saladin, Scimitar, Vansittart, Venetia, Versatile, Vimiera, Winchester, Windsor, Wivern, Wolfhound, Wolsey, Worcester, Ambuscade, Anthony, Boadicea, Bulldog, Express, Galiant, Greyhound, Isis, Ivanhoe, Harvester, Somali, Jaguar, Kelly)

Only five of those (Wolfhound, Express, Isis, Kelly, Boadicea) were still unavailable in september.

More ships had been sunk (9) or damaged (11) in July or August, but overall there were only 12 destroyers under long term repairs following enemy actions in September.

The situation was tense, but very far from desperate.
Which is illustrated by the facts that between May and September, 14 destroyers were transferred from Home Waters to the Mediterranean, which was clearly a less critical are, and 7 more left Home waters in september to attack Dakar (an operation which was far less critical than the defense of homeland).

[LWD]

Those of you who are unfamiliar with this post:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4&t=152290
may find it of significant interest in regards to RN destroyers. Mescal has produced similar ones for other classes and navies as well.

[flakbait]

Was more thinking an early July or August time frame for an attempted landing (based solely upon the weather/ sea state factor) which is admittedly even less likely from the German point of view. It is very fortunate Herr Hitler and Co. were neither excellent long term strategic or logistical planners nor capable of regarding naval power in any real depth and usually made it a point to ignore those who were...

[LWD]

How ready can the LW or the KM be at that point though?

[phylo_roadking]

How ready can the LW or the KM be at that point though?

Well...through July and early August they were still planning the FORTY-division "wide front" landing...and they certainly couldn't have been ready for THAT!

[flakbait]

Again agreed. But even with an overwhelming escort, complete air supremacy and all the troops and supplies needed to successfully invade if you founder 1 mile off shore it`s embarassing to say the least...did some checking and by mid Sept the Channel generally starts getting nastily stormy again. Mid July to late August are generally the calmest as far as the weather goes in the Channel...considering too the Germans did not have anything approaching a "LST" type ship, LSM or LCI craft or even the "F" lighter at this time nor any units remotely considered `expert` landing craft qualified wonder how many of the modified former river barges that survived the weather, air attacks, British naval assaults and mine fields and Royal Army artillery shelling and successfully got ashore would have made it back off for the return trip ? Would imagine far less than 1/2 of the starting numbers? Does anyone know if they were expected to attempt a 2cnd wave ?