When did Hitler realise/acknowledge defeat

[David1819]

I find it very difficult too believe that Hitler only realised defeat when Obergruppenführer Felix Steiner was unable to counter-attack the Red Army encirclement of Berlin in 1945, Resulting in Hitler VERBALLY admitting defeat in a huge rant on 22 April 1945 just 8 days before his suicide.

Many documentaries and other mainstream outlets of information explain this as the moment when Hitler realised defeat. I think this is distortion or simplification of the matter, Just because he verbally admitted the war was lost does not mean that is when in his mind he realised defeat.

I speculate that in December 1941 when it was apparent the soviet union was still intact Hitler realised defeat was a possibility. Then after Kursk 1943 it was an inevitability.

Hitler was no fool if he only realised defeat on 22 April 1945 then he would not have had the mental capacity to become furher in the first place it does not add up.

Please share your thoughts

[steverodgers801]

When his fantasy counter attack from group Steiner did not win his miracle victory is when Hitler did give up his fight. You cant understand Hitler using standard logic. In Hitler's view it was his will that enabled him to achieve power after the failure of the Putsch, that he achieved victory over France, that Germany fought for so long against great odds. Hitler kept clinging to his fantasy that his will alone would achieve a miracle and when that final miracle failed, there was no more to believe in

[BDV]

I don't think it was "defeat" as such. Just a continuous downward readjustment of war goals, starting as early as July 1941.

[glenn239]

I speculate that in December 1941 when it was apparent the soviet union was still intact Hitler realised defeat was a possibility. Then after Kursk 1943 it was an inevitability.

I doubt either date; after Kursk Hitler was focused on the idea that the USSR was exhausting its manpower and that defensive tactics might stabilize the front. I'd suspect the day he cancelled the Bulge offensive was when he knew the war was lost.

[David1819]

When his fantasy counter attack from group Steiner did not win his miracle victory is when Hitler did give up his fight. You cant understand Hitler using standard logic. In Hitler's view it was his will that enabled him to achieve power after the failure of the Putsch, that he achieved victory over France, that Germany fought for so long against great odds. Hitler kept clinging to his fantasy that his will alone would achieve a miracle and when that final miracle failed, there was no more to believe in

I would have to disagree, In the last 3 years of the conflict didn't Hitler spend long hours in bed and require amphetamine injections to motivate him? The 1930s Hitler was very different to the 1940s Hitler just look at the photos the change in body language and posture is remarkable.

[ChrisDR68]

Probably when he was recovering from the July bomb plot.

The western Allies and the Soviets were achieving landslide advances in the late summer of 1944. The Mortain counterattack in Normandy was his last attempt at containing the Allies within the Normandy bridgehead. Once the US army had broken out and the German forces were almost surrounded at Falaise the game was up in the west.

In the east army group centre had just been cut to pieces during Bagration and Model was desperately trying to plug the gaps in the German front.

So at a time when he'd almost been blown to kingdom come his armies in east and west were being decimated. My guess is he finally realised the war was lost around August/September 1944.

[steverodgers801]

I say the defeat because Hitler didn't commit suicide until he knew there was no hope.

[Graeme Sydney]

Hitler never had a complete grasp on reality, not in 1912 and not in 1945. Hitler never acknowledged defeat. In Hitler's mind he was destined to achieve great things and when things begun to obviously fail it wasn't defeat it was betrayal.

In 1945, up to his neck in a Fight to the Death struggle, Hitler ordered the total destruction of Germany because the German People had failed and betrayed him and were not worthy to continue as a people.

Hitler was a certifiable nut case in 1912 and even worst in 1945. Hitler was a pathological narcissist.

[wenty]

I agree with both Chris and Graeme - the time when he probably realised it, at least internally, was after the bomb plot by own staff on July 20, 1944 in the wake of the successful allied invasion of France the previous month.

But it's true that Hitler didn't use logic as a normal person would - he was on all sorts of medications and there are serious question marks over how much of a grip on reality and sanity Hitler had in the final months of the war. He quite often did live in a world of fantasy victories, fantasy armies coming to the rescue and fantasy deliverance. So it may be that he truly didn't grasp the concept of defeat until right near the very end, if he ever really did at all.

Most of his more sensible generals knew that the Germans were in serious strife by the time Stalingrad rolled around, but to say so was to risk your life, and so on it went until the inevitable happened.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Guys,

I would suggest that, once rational reasons for believing he could win the war had evaporated, Hitler increasingly turned to less rational ones. His fixation with, often unspecified, wonder weapons became a rhetorical crutch by which he propped up both his own morale and that of others.

He also recalled the miraculous delivery of Frederick the Great from otherwise apparently inevitable defeat in the Seven Years War. Frederick was saved by the death of the Czar of Russia. His Prussophile successor withdrew Russia from the alliance against Frederick. Hitler thought Roosevelt's death on 12 April ,1945, might be a similar deliverance.

I would suggest that only when such improbable and fanciful rescues proved hollow did Hitler have to face the reality of defeat. Late April 1945 may well be that moment.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Graeme Sydney]

Hitler was pathological narcissist and delusional, he never was really on the rational level. He never 'believed' he was going to win he 'knew' he was going to win - there was never doubt, it was his fate - his destiny, he was delusional.

Any appearance of rational behaviour or decision making was coincidental and 'faked' so he could work with the mere mortals and fulfill his destiny.

[john2]

I think by 1943 Hitler realized Germany might lose. But he couldn't bring himself to admit defeat. The only possible course of action might have been a negotiated surrender - but the allies would have only have considered that had Hitler been removed from power. Even if he had been able to stay on it would be an incredible loss of face given all the talk about Germans being superior.

[Graeme Sydney]

I think by 1943 Hitler realized Germany might lose. But he couldn't bring himself to admit defeat. The only possible course of action might have been a negotiated surrender - but the allies would have only have considered that had Hitler been removed from power. Even if he had been able to stay on it would be an incredible loss of face given all the talk about Germans being superior.

That's rational and logical and the way you think. It is not the way Hitler thought. Google 'Hitler pathological narcissist' or similar and you will get a boat load of evidence and info. Then google 'pathological narcissist' or 'narcissist' and you will get an understanding of Hitler and his driving force (and life in general).

[john2]

That's rational and logical and the way you think. It is not the way Hitler thought. Google 'Hitler pathological narcissist' or similar and you will get a boat load of evidence and info. Then google 'pathological narcissist' or 'narcissist' and you will get an understanding of Hitler and his driving force (and life in general).

There's no doubt Hitler was power hungry and brutal but there was a method to the madness. One thing people are forgetting is the trauma of 1918. The whole rationale behind Hitler was that he could do better then the Kaiser. Considering the whole story of how Hitler got where he was he can't necessarily be blamed for thinking he might get lucky and win in the end. I think this is a big reason why Hitler felt he had to let events play themselves out- everyone had simply felt Germany had given up too early in ww1. He probably should have voluntarily removed himself from power in 1944 in the hopes the allies would negotiate. But that would have been quite alot to swallow for anyone. The way the war ended was terrible but there could be no doubt who won the second time around.

[Graeme Sydney]

Sit up and pay attention there mister John.

You are still applying rational and logical thinking - Hitler wasn't. There is no way in hell that Hitler would, or would even consider (did not even think in the terms of), resigning, abdicating or suiciding to save Germany - not in '43, '44 or '45 - never.

I don't think you googled as I suggested, so............

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Hitl ... 8Qft5YGYBw

....a few examples.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j ... 5653,d.dGc