Reasons germany lost the war

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j keenan
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#16

Post by j keenan » 06 Aug 2014, 17:04

Soaking their feet before the long trudge home !!!

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LWD
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#17

Post by LWD » 11 Aug 2014, 18:21

steverodgers801 wrote:The US senate and house were determined to keep the US out of any European war and only a direct action would have caused a DOW
I'd sure like to see some sources on that. The US congress wasn't going to declare war unless they felt they had the support of the voters but that's a different matter. Note also that the Gallup Polls from that period show that for pretty much the entire period the US populace didn't think a German victroy would be good for the US, much of the reason they were reluctant to go to war seems to have been confidence in the British ability to avoid defeat.


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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#18

Post by ChrisDR68 » 17 Sep 2014, 16:41

You could argue that the Royal Navy won WW2.

Germany couldn't force Britain out of the war. The reason for this was the UK's naval power. With Britain still in the war Hitler was unable to secure his western flank and this ultimately forced him to spread his armed forces too thinly (especially in the east).

Having Britain still in the war enabled the US's mighty industrial and military power to be brought to bear against the Germans. With the UK out of the war the US would have had a much tougher time doing this.

The only way around this for Hitler would have been to train and build a very large anti-shipping arm of the Luftwaffe that would have been able to defend a seaborne invasion of the UK in 1941. Properly designed landing craft could have been built at the same time.

It would still have been a massively risky operation to carry out but more likely to succeed than an improvised attempt in 1940 using modified river barges.

David1819
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#19

Post by David1819 » 17 Sep 2014, 23:52

Germany could not win WW2 in a conventional sense, Germany would be defeated via attrition no matter what tactics and strategy they used. The only way they could have won the conflict is by using psychological warfare early on or by developing superior weapons such as nuclear weapons later on

Graeme Sydney
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#20

Post by Graeme Sydney » 20 Sep 2014, 23:39

ChrisDR68 wrote:You could argue that the Royal Navy won WW2.
Only if you were a pusser. :D

I thought it was the Riff Raff during the Battle of Britain. :lol:

Hitler thought it was that warmongerer Churchill. :P

But it wasn't until the Infantry walked in and pointed a gun at the last Nazi's forehead and said "Desist!!" that the war was won. :thumbsup:

Graeme Sydney
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#21

Post by Graeme Sydney » 20 Sep 2014, 23:59

David1819 wrote:Germany could not win WW2 in a conventional sense,....
Wars are conventionally fought with a combination the military, the economic power and diplomacy. In '39 - '41 Hitler/Germany relied almost entirely on Continental European military power and ignored diplomacy and Geo-political considerations.
David1819 wrote: Germany would be defeated via attrition no matter what tactics and strategy they used.
Unless of course they used diplomacy to avoid blockade.
David1819 wrote:The only way they could have won the conflict is by using Psychological Warfare early on or by developing superior weapons such as nuclear weapons later on
I haven't known "Psychological Warfare" win a battle let alone a war. Nuclear technology wasn't even on the German radar and Germany didn't have the economic and technical resources to build or deliver on target a nuke any time in the 1939 - 1945 period.

The Germany we have now is the Germany we were always going to have. Germany could have achieved this with out WW2. It would have required policy, diplomacy, military strength (but not necessary military action), and time. But of course lead by Nazi policy and driven by Hitler's pathological narcissistic sense of destiny they never had the policy or the time.

glenn239
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#22

Post by glenn239 » 06 Oct 2014, 18:32

Kovymoga wrote:I think that war with the United States would have been unavoidable after Pearl Harbor. I dont see any scenario where Roosevelt dosen't declare war On Germany considering that Japan and Germany were allied.
So then your first reason why Germany lost the war should be the alliance with Japan.

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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#23

Post by glenn239 » 06 Oct 2014, 18:33

David1819 wrote:Germany could not win WW2 in a conventional sense, Germany would be defeated via attrition no matter what tactics and strategy they used.
Britain loses the war if Germany manages to keep the USA and USSR out of it.

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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#24

Post by ChrisDR68 » 06 Oct 2014, 19:24

glenn239 wrote:
David1819 wrote:Germany could not win WW2 in a conventional sense, Germany would be defeated via attrition no matter what tactics and strategy they used.
Britain loses the war if Germany manages to keep the USA and USSR out of it.
Hitler didn't want the USSR out of the war. He fought the war to give Germany an east European empire that would be self-sufficient in strategic raw materials and foodstuffs.

Conquering eastern Europe (and especially Soviet Russia) was absolutely central to his long term vision of Germany as Europe's dominant power.

glenn239
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#25

Post by glenn239 » 07 Oct 2014, 18:26

It's not a question of what Hitler wanted. It's a question of what Germany had to do to be able to win the war, which was, to keep the USA and USSR out of it.

Hauptmannnenkel
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#26

Post by Hauptmannnenkel » 07 Oct 2014, 19:34

first point where england was lucky
england was nearly done by end of 1940. no reserve etc. they were lucky that hitler already ordred in summer 40 to develop a plan for the invasion of russia. by octobre-novemvre germany transferred material from the west to the east - planes etc as well.


secondly, if barbarossa would have been started like foreseen by mai 1941, it is highly probable that leningrad and moskau would have fallen. at this point, england would have been completly isolated for some months (before USA would enter the war) and russian government and high-command would probably have flet behind Ural and needing some month before constructing a new front and reorganizing the army as well.


the turning point of war was that the foreseen barbarossa plan had to be rescheduled, so losing 6 important weeks before "mud-period" and winter....
saying this, i do believe that after the fall of "main-russia", germany would have withstand a second front in the west (see dieppe 42, where allies realized that germany was to strong at this point, even if it was just an attempt). if germany would have the opportunity to withdraw the best divisions from the east to the west (after victory in the east) and to transfer their main army power to the west, england and usa wouldnt invade successfully in europe. hell, even 1944, if von schweppenburg, von rundstedt and hitler would have listen to tommel and located the panzer troups directly near the beach-area, even in 1944 the invasion would have been repulsed in the first 3-5 days, at least this version isnt absurd.

glenn239
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#27

Post by glenn239 » 08 Oct 2014, 14:41

if germany would have the opportunity to withdraw the best divisions from the east to the west (after victory in the east)
I doubt there was ever going to be a victory in the east. The decision to attack Russia was madness mixed in with aggression and arrogance.

j keenan
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#28

Post by j keenan » 08 Oct 2014, 22:52

Hauptmannnenkel wrote:first point where england was lucky
england was nearly done by end of 1940. no reserve etc. they were lucky that hitler already ordred in summer 40 to develop a plan for the invasion of russia. by octobre-novemvre germany transferred material from the west to the east - planes etc as well.


secondly, if barbarossa would have been started like foreseen by mai 1941, it is highly probable that leningrad and moskau would have fallen. at this point, england would have been completly isolated for some months (before USA would enter the war) and russian government and high-command would probably have flet behind Ural and needing some month before constructing a new front and reorganizing the army as well.


the turning point of war was that the foreseen barbarossa plan had to be rescheduled, so losing 6 important weeks before "mud-period" and winter....
saying this, i do believe that after the fall of "main-russia", germany would have withstand a second front in the west (see dieppe 42, where allies realized that germany was to strong at this point, even if it was just an attempt). if germany would have the opportunity to withdraw the best divisions from the east to the west (after victory in the east) and to transfer their main army power to the west, england and usa wouldnt invade successfully in europe. hell, even 1944, if von schweppenburg, von rundstedt and hitler would have listen to tommel and located the panzer troups directly near the beach-area, even in 1944 the invasion would have been repulsed in the first 3-5 days, at least this version isnt absurd.
UK was nearly done 1940 ? The Luftwaffe lost Battle of Britain You forget about the Balkans,Africa ?
You seem to forget about the successful landings in Italy 9.43 ?
Third Reich was dooooommed 1.9.1939

Hauptmannnenkel
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#29

Post by Hauptmannnenkel » 08 Oct 2014, 23:04

j keenan wrote:
Hauptmannnenkel wrote:first point where england was lucky
england was nearly done by end of 1940. no reserve etc. they were lucky that hitler already ordred in summer 40 to develop a plan for the invasion of russia. by octobre-novemvre germany transferred material from the west to the east - planes etc as well.


secondly, if barbarossa would have been started like foreseen by mai 1941, it is highly probable that leningrad and moskau would have fallen. at this point, england would have been completly isolated for some months (before USA would enter the war) and russian government and high-command would probably have flet behind Ural and needing some month before constructing a new front and reorganizing the army as well.


the turning point of war was that the foreseen barbarossa plan had to be rescheduled, so losing 6 important weeks before "mud-period" and winter....
saying this, i do believe that after the fall of "main-russia", germany would have withstand a second front in the west (see dieppe 42, where allies realized that germany was to strong at this point, even if it was just an attempt). if germany would have the opportunity to withdraw the best divisions from the east to the west (after victory in the east) and to transfer their main army power to the west, england and usa wouldnt invade successfully in europe. hell, even 1944, if von schweppenburg, von rundstedt and hitler would have listen to tommel and located the panzer troups directly near the beach-area, even in 1944 the invasion would have been repulsed in the first 3-5 days, at least this version isnt absurd.
UK was nearly done 1940 ? The Luftwaffe lost Battle of Britain You forget about the Balkans,Africa ?
You seem to forget about the successful landings in Italy 9.43 ?
Third Reich was dooooommed 1.9.1939
yes Britain was lost. Where did Britain win? If germany didnt focus on the east and transported troups to the east, i really do not see britainw inning anything outhere against wehrmacht.

africa? common rommel with nearly nothing compared to britain and its "allies" from india, new zeland, south africa and later usa etc.... rommels Husarenritt nearly to alexandria was huge.

you know what rommel said to his wife, as hitler promoted him to Feldmarschall: "i would have prefer that he gave me 1 division"

and what rommel also said in march 43: hitler and OKW NEVER gave me the supply i needed..... and now where everything is lost in africa, they gave us pioniers and heavy tanks, but its way too late. Most of these supply-troups even didnt have the time to be transfered to front and were immediatly captured in tunesia. he said that this expierience was one of the worst in his whole life.

funny what you are mentionning: germany alone against the whole world on multiple fronts and you are giving me some shit where england always fought with its bigger brother, without it no victory. simple as that.

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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#30

Post by Michael Kenny » 08 Oct 2014, 23:15

Hauptmannnenkel wrote:at least this version isnt absurd.

It is.
Completely absurd.
The war was lost by summer of 1944.

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