If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
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Stiltzkin
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#76

Post by Stiltzkin » 29 Aug 2016, 10:24

I say only that the attempts to downplay air-power are mistaken and I have produced the evidence to show more examples of bombing that appear to be unknown to the doubters.
I see. Its generally good to point it out, however on the grand scheme this does not change the statements about overall effectiveness, making such a fuss unnecessary. Bombing was effective in destroying large cities. Not so much in destroying moving, small armoured, maneuvering targets.

Shermaninterest
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#77

Post by Shermaninterest » 30 Aug 2016, 02:29

Seems the first post of Kenny was not really about 4 Tigers or more but rather to show Germans kept destroyed vehicles with the unit to bump the numbers and create the Tiger myth. Zetterling did say that 4 is likely too low before Kenny even commentated. Kennys rather harsh first post in the linked thread then got more or less debunked.

"The solution is not so complicated, these paper figures for destroyed Tigers are not accurate. The problem is the German practise of recovering every possible wreck and trying to fix it. Placing a tank in the repair category that does not eventualy get fixed has the effect of keeping the total numbers up whilst not improving the combat readiness. It all adds to the Tiger myth if you can say the Abteilung all had a good number of their initial allocation still on strength-despite most of them being hulks. This preoccupation with the total strength of the 3 Tiger Abteilung ignores the fact that the effective strength of each was only around the half that of the paper strength.
"

Zetterling conceded that the report can be wrong before Kenny even posted:

"However, I have come to believe that the report for Tiger losses up to 27 July is in fact premature. I don't think all losses suffered by 503. s.Pz.Abt. during Goodwood are included in the report."

Zetterling later refuted Kennys claims about the practice to keep big amounts of unrepairable tanks on strength.


Michael Kenny
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#78

Post by Michael Kenny » 30 Aug 2016, 02:49

Shermaninterest wrote:
Zetterling conceded that the report can be wrong before Kenny even posted
That is because someone e-mailed him long before the thread started and pointed out the 4 number could not possibly be right and included details that could be checked.
Guess who that was?
This contact is mentioned by him in the thread on page 1.

Michael Kenny (unless there happen to be more than one Michael Kenny with an interst in Tigers) has, in e-mail to me, provided evidence suggesting that more than 4 Tigers were lost by 503. s.Pz.Abt. during the period. Wolfgang Schneider also gives a higher loss figure in his book "Tigers in Combat", though I don't know what source he has used.

I might add that this was no great discovery. The number of Tigers lost by sPz Abt 503 was known to be much greater even by Schneider in TIC 1. The problem was getting proof (photos) of more than 4 wrecks that could be positively without question be from July 18th.

Shermaninterest
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#79

Post by Shermaninterest » 30 Aug 2016, 03:10

I read the thread, he said you emailed him. But he didn't argue about the 4 losses with you, he accepted that those were likely too low. Reading the thread it becomes apparent that given your more narrow research field you knew more about the specific actions than him but he didn't challenge that as far as I can tell. You opened with a "harsh" statement about the German repair system which was later more or less debunked and in my opinion you misrepresented that here because it wasn't about "4 or 6 or 15". Zetterling based his works mostly on archival papers which likely is the optimal way to gather big amounts of information but your research is certainly more accurate and refined. Zetterling seems wise enough not to commit too hard to statements he isn't sure about. You, on the other hand, claimed that "big" amount of German tanks would be kept on strength while unrepairable. This revelation could if finally brought to public attention, alter the perception of Tigers. But you didn't follow up with conclusive proof you just gave isolated examples which were easily explainable or insignificant and there Zetterling did a good job refuting you. But I agree with Zetterling that you should put your admittedly impressive knowledge to good use and publish a book or at least make a website to share your knowledge.

Michael Kenny
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#80

Post by Michael Kenny » 30 Aug 2016, 03:28

Shermaninterest wrote: Zetterling based his works mostly on archival papers which likely is the optimal way to gather big amounts of information .
There is a thread here from way back where you can see that the optimal 'archival papers' led Zetterling to use a 'bombing raid' of June 29th on 9th SS (page 44, Normandy 1944) as an example of how ineffective such bombing was. Turns out it the reason there was little or no damage was because there no such raid!
Also on the same page Zetterling claims the Villers Bocage bombing was also ineffective as it was not mentioned in any period German documents. This was also shown to be incorrect. It was noted.

I would have thought it fairly well accepted today that German units did hold back KO'd tanks rather than sending them back for factory rebuild. Measures taken to try and stop this happening (that did not work) are laid out in the Repairing The Panzers books

Shermaninterest
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#81

Post by Shermaninterest » 30 Aug 2016, 03:42

You don't have to convince me, I am certain that if you start arguing about a specific incident you did your homework. For the fairness, I just didn't think you represented your exchange with Zetterling correctly. In defense of Zetterling, his books are crammed with data, its not possible to check everything and such mistakes will happen again. But he seems to understand he accepted your superior research for the 18th July without much trouble it seems.

Nobody will argue that using archival papers full of numbers is the "optimal" way to get an accurate picture of a single incident but it is the optimal way to gather a lot of data. You will always find weaknesses in this approach and that doesn't mean the approach is bad. That's the same he said to you.
Michael Kenny wrote:
Shermaninterest wrote: Zetterling based his works mostly on archival papers which likely is the optimal way to gather big amounts of information .
I would have thought it fairly well accepted today that German units did hold back KO'd tanks rather than sending them back for factory rebuild. Measures taken to try and stop this happening (that did not work) are laid out in the Repairing The Panzers books
It is, but even after reading many posts of you I have never seen you do a detailed analysis on how significant this was. Every second ? Every 4th? To be frank since you used the same name in all forums I came across many posts introducing the "Tiger problem" with rather strong claims but never really saw them substaniated. Don't get me wrong I would like to know it aswell but you don't seem to be able to present a comprehensive analysis of the topic but rather isolated nuggets of informations which are hardly enough to support your claim. Destroyed tanks on strength, sure but how many.

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doogal
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#82

Post by doogal » 31 Aug 2016, 17:33

Stiltskin wrote - Bombing was effective in destroying large cities. Not so much in destroying moving, small armoured, maneuvering targets.
High Level Bombing (Mass Bombing / Carpet Bombing) did not lend itself easily to precision as we all know but was still useful against lots of small armoured targets if they were not dispersed. Those times it was used on the battlefield it usually led to a complimentary amount of Allied casualties.
Because such air superiority existed mass formations could be used but lacking precision this Hap Hazard Air Artillery still had an effectiveness which is not simply measured in the amount of tanks or troops it does or does not destroy.
Allied low level fighter bombers were being used in a precise manner, railway stock, tracks, roads small armoured targets of opportunity and general interdiction aimed at stemming supply and movement. But they simply did not have the weight of firepower on there own to inflict the kind of focused width dislocation that a breakthrough operation would require. Hence even a 25%effective high level drop appears as a positive option in a geographical area which an army has to face the enemy and breakthrough there front.
But you all know this anyhow.

georgica
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#83

Post by georgica » 05 Jan 2017, 02:47

Why Hitler started with Poland first ? Hitler should not started war with Yougoslavija ither , where he suffered great losses against Partizans. He needed Tito more than He needed Antonescu. By doing so gave to much time to Allies to get ready...
At the time Hitlers Bomb Engineers working on the "V1 and V2", The Yougoslavs were ahead of them . But of course Hitler did not have intelligence on Belgrade and Nicola Tesla scientific secret program.
What would happen if AXIS would have this plan: Germany, Italy and small Axis take together on Russia in Eastern front and at same time Japan take Russia from the other site and than celebrate Victory on Stalingrad ? After that take on Brits and French and may or not wage war to USA it depends.
In my opinion this would have worked better for Hitler instead to wage war all over the globe.

Erwinn
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#84

Post by Erwinn » 24 Jan 2017, 10:25

British had plans over Yugoslavia, they initated a coup that's what made Hitler mad. You know what happens when he loses his tamper.

uhu
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#85

Post by uhu » 24 Jan 2017, 22:48

Skip all the effort put into the V-1 and V-2 and put it into flak proximity fuse research. They were experimenting with those fuses a bit late, mid spring of 45. May have led to a negotiated peace as with out Allied air tactical and strategic dominance things like Normandy would have to expensively prohibitive.

randwick
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#86

Post by randwick » 28 Jan 2017, 23:49

.
1939 ... idem
1940 up to June ....idem , then
Quickly put the hard squeeze on Franco , up to replacing him by some Falangist opponent , to join the war and take Gibraltar ,
Germany to garnison it , make an early determined effort to take Malta ,

Leave it a that ! , develop the new weapons , fortifies the East , stock up resources ,
Nazifie Europe ,call it something like an European Union and set some capital city for it outside Germany to protect appearances ,

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Yuri
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#87

Post by Yuri » 29 Jan 2017, 11:39

pintere wrote:I would first assassinate him, then use my knowledge of the future to take his place.

I'd conquer France, then Britain, with my handy knowledge of the future. Then a new Barbarossa, fixing the mistakes made in reality. I would then prepare for the ultimate military challenge, the conquest of the US, Operation Talon. With the US conquered, there would be no more major military powers apart from Japan to challenge my conquest of the globe.
If you have already defeated England to start a new Barbarossa is impossible. Barbarossa is the plan for the defeat of Russia to victory over England. This is the first.
And secondly, and this is important. When the late field Marshal Bernard Montgomery, the greatest British warlord of the twentieth century, was asked to compile a list of military mistakes that should be avoided at number one, he wrote: "The Invasion of Russia. It is always a bad idea".

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pintere
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#88

Post by pintere » 30 Jan 2017, 17:19

Yuri wrote:When the late field Marshal Bernard Montgomery, the greatest British warlord of the twentieth century, was asked to compile a list of military mistakes that should be avoided at number one, he wrote: "The Invasion of Russia. It is always a bad idea".
I have heard this argument many times before and think you should watch this video on the topic. Afterwards I'm happy to debate the subject myself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft-dYaZKxwU

Delwin
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#89

Post by Delwin » 30 Jan 2017, 18:03

After reading that topic - why no-one wants to come back in time to help the Allies to win the war faster :-)? I can think of dozen mistakes made before and during the war which helped Hitler to achieve known results. Let's imagine only that France attacks Germany (with Poland and Czechoslovakia) in 1936 when Germany tries the remilitarization of the Rhineland. Other option - no brilliant sickelcut because Allies to not enter Belgium or, when deciding what tanks to build, France decides to go for decent tanks with two (or three) men in the turret with radio and solid 47mm (or at least 25 mm) gun?

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Yuri
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#90

Post by Yuri » 31 Jan 2017, 17:57

pintere wrote:
Yuri wrote:When the late field Marshal Bernard Montgomery, the greatest British warlord of the twentieth century, was asked to compile a list of military mistakes that should be avoided at number one, he wrote: "The Invasion of Russia. It is always a bad idea".
I have heard this argument many times before and think you should watch this video on the topic. Afterwards I'm happy to debate the subject myself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft-dYaZKxwU
Good or bad idea to invade Russia, the topic is not this thread.


In my opinion, the only thing we can advise Hitler - before the war to eliminate chaos and confusion in the management of the Third Reich, leadership of the Armed Forces in General and actually in the Wehrmacht. It depended only on him and only on him. Hitler created a system of government was unique in world history. Is was a change in this system?, to this question I have a clear answer no. But I think that most likely-no. As for the rest, Hitler can't improve anything without its opponents are found to is their best answer.

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