Did Göring Lose the War for Hitler?

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Rescue193
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Re: Did Göring Lose the War for Hitler?

#16

Post by Rescue193 » 06 Dec 2016, 17:25

I think its pretty safe to say that Hitler lost the war for himself but not all by himself. He had a lot of help, particularly from the Luftwaffe but even then it wasn't entirely down to Göring. Ernst Udet and Erhard Milch were the inept architects of the demise of German air power which played such a significant part in the defeat of Nazi Germany.

Milch and Udet presided over an organisation that was bereft of strategic oversight, riven with petty interdepartmental feuding and incapable of putting aircraft design and production on a level required to sustain the Luftwaffe as an effective fighting force in the 'total war' that the second world war became following the invasion of Russia and, arguably more important especially in terms of war production and output, the entry of the United States into the war in 1941. The basic and incontestable fact is that the German air force could not meet its commitments to defend the Reich and meet the requirements of the army and the navy (particularly the U-boat service) because it simply did not have sufficient assets of the right types to do the job.

The Battle of Britain was lost because the Germans did not truly understand the effectiveness of the defence system they were up against. Radar (and let's not forget the Royal Observer Corps) and the Command and Control system didn't beat them but, crucially, it was the mechanism that meant they could never win. Even if 11 Group had had to withdraw north of the Thames the Luftwaffe would not have been able to establish air superiority (let alone air supremacy) over the south coast. The 'change of tactics' to draw-up the last few fighters in the defence of London (that many have attributed to Göring) was flawed but it didn't make a 'real' difference because the Luftwaffe lacked the intelligence, both literally and figuratively, to achieve the strategic outcome required. But losing the battle of Britain didn't cost the Hitler the war.

As far as Stalingrad is concerned, 'who' promised 'what how much' to 'whom' and 'when' is moot. Arguing about tonnage required and delivered is like debating the number of angels that can dance on the point of a pin. Even if Göring had told Hitler that it was impossible to maintain the 6th Army in the pocket its highly improbable (just look at his record when it came to sanctioning withdrawals of small forces even a few miles) that Hitler would have allowed Paulus to pull back from his position. Conversely, if the Luftwaffe had achieved air supremacy (or merely air superiority) and had had a transport more capable than the Ju 52 and thus been able to keep the 6th Army supplied at anything like the level required it would have made little difference. The pocket could not be relieved, the Germans simply lacked the strength to do that (and they did try), so the fate of the 6th Army would have been the same. Then again, losing Stalingrad didn't lose the war for Hitler.

Sure, in 1944 Hitler's dabbling delayed the introduction of the Me 262 by a few months and by then Udet was dead and Speer had supplanted Milch but the damage had already been done. The Luftwaffe was still fighting with (albeit improved) Bf 109s, He 111s, Ju 88s and Ju 87s, Ju 52s as the major part of its inventory, the FW 190, the Me 210, the Me 262 the Ar 234 were never available in sufficient numbers to make a significant difference. In the West they, the Germans, were facing Lancasters and B17s (and others) in the strategic role, a plethora of medium bomber types, Mustangs, Typhoons, Tempests, Thunderbolts... the list goes on... but all types that post-dated the German inventory. Oh! The Spitfire was still going strong of course but it was more than a match for the Bf 109 by then.

Anyhow, hubris and ineptitude, sheer manufacturing muscle, technological superiority and, of course the bravery of the men who flew and fought in their machines brought down the Luftwaffe. Göring was complicit in that failure, Milch and Udet ensured it would eventually happen, but none of them lost the war for Hitler. Der Führer was the author of his own failure. After he declared hostilities against the US it was a war he could never, ever, win.

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Re: Did Göring Lose the War for Hitler?

#17

Post by steevh » 26 Dec 2016, 18:23

The main reason the Germans lost the Battle of Britain was not because of defective operational planning by Hitler or Goering, but because it was quite simply a campaign they hadn't planned on fighting, an ad hoc thing, and for which there was no long-term planning.

It is quite clear from the German naval plan they had no intention of taking on the UK by sea-borne invasion: the opportunity arose following the debacle in France, where the British forces had left most of their heavy weapons behind.

They still had the Royal Navy and the RAF to stop any crossing.

The Luftwaffe was always intended to fulfill a ground support role, which it did admirably in Poland, France and Russia.

That the Luftwaffe was unable to supply the Stalingrad pocket is hardly something to blame on Goering's incompetence. It can be seen as a calculated political move by a very sharp operator, who knew the game was up anyway. He would have fared worse in Hitler's standing had he said, "Stalingrad is screwed and there's nothing we can do about it, " and then said "I told you so" after the surrender.

Having said that, the huge size of Luftwaffe ground troops after 1943 certainly didn't help the Germans.


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Re: Did Göring Lose the War for Hitler?

#18

Post by Nickdfresh » 01 Jan 2017, 01:04

Well, who put Goering there to begin with? Who only heard what they wanted to hear?

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Re: Did Göring Lose the War for Hitler?

#19

Post by pugsville » 01 Jan 2017, 06:45

Mistakes in running the Luftwaffe.' The problem was the it was in Nazi Germany where cronyism and patronage was how things got done, and Goring was a master operator here, but that was focused on building his political and economic power rather than focused of developing the Luftwaffe. He had his fingers in every available pie, and had a lot of pulls on his attention and time, as well as a huge private entertainment/hunting lodge building etc that surely must have limited his effectiveness even if he was a good manager which he was not. Poor selection to drive development and intelligence in the Luftwaffe were to trouble the Luftwaffe through out the war, generally the Luftwaffe run poor plane development programs, and developed very few successful designed though the war, was subject to arbitrarily universal decisions from up top imposing bizarre rules of development like the dive bombing mandate.

In The battle of Britain they just had no real idea how the British air defences were organised. They have no real concept of the British system of air defence. Their early attacks of the radar stations where makes as failures, the British just sent the same radio traffic regardless of weather the Radar station was actually operational, so the Germans just thought they were too hard to damage and never rely targeted them again.

The Lack of preparation for a long war, the Luftwaffe training schools were not organised for a longer war, rotation of experienced pilots like the US/Britian could have helped develop pilots, calling up the schools whenever there was a transport crisis. What is called 'Crisis' management, the mangers locked into hanging short term crisis , making short term decisions losing complete sight of the longer strategic view.

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Re: Did Göring Lose the War for Hitler?

#20

Post by steevh » 02 Jan 2017, 20:53

pugsville wrote:Mistakes in running the Luftwaffe.' The problem was the it was in Nazi Germany where cronyism and patronage was how things got done, and Goring was a master operator here, but that was focused on building his political and economic power rather than focused of developing the Luftwaffe. He had his fingers in every available pie, and had a lot of pulls on his attention and time, as well as a huge private entertainment/hunting lodge building etc that surely must have limited his effectiveness even if he was a good manager which he was not. Poor selection to drive development and intelligence in the Luftwaffe were to trouble the Luftwaffe through out the war, generally the Luftwaffe run poor plane development programs, and developed very few successful designed though the war, was subject to arbitrarily universal decisions from up top imposing bizarre rules of development like the dive bombing mandate.

In The battle of Britain they just had no real idea how the British air defences were organised. They have no real concept of the British system of air defence. Their early attacks of the radar stations where makes as failures, the British just sent the same radio traffic regardless of weather the Radar station was actually operational, so the Germans just thought they were too hard to damage and never rely targeted them again.

The Lack of preparation for a long war, the Luftwaffe training schools were not organised for a longer war, rotation of experienced pilots like the US/Britian could have helped develop pilots, calling up the schools whenever there was a transport crisis. What is called 'Crisis' management, the mangers locked into hanging short term crisis , making short term decisions losing complete sight of the longer strategic view.
Its pretty clear the Luftwaffe was the top European air force until 1942.

They also fielded some of the best planes produced during the war, and were pioneers in fighter development, rocket planes, air-to-air missiles, cruise missiles (V1) and so on.

Like Hitler, Goering presided over both Germany's greatest successes and greatest failures. Portraying him as a bumbling drug addict and amateur accords with the absurd historical stereotyping to which all the top Nazis were subject, but ignores the fact that in December 1941, the Allies only hung on by the skin of their teeth.

The Luftwaffe suffered from a pilot shortage in the later stages of the war, and were outproduced by the Allies in planes. German efforts to reorganize war industry from 1942 on were successful, but not as successful as Allied efforts. I'd be interested to see any research you can point to on Goering's supposed incompetence, especially any critical decisions he got wrong.

Everyone already knows the picture of Hitler's interference in Me 262 production presented by Speer and others.

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Re: Did Göring Lose the War for Hitler?

#21

Post by steevh » 02 Jan 2017, 21:00

I think if you want to argue that Goering lost the war for Hitler, you'd have to argue that he was responsible for the failure of Barbarossa. That was the crucial campaign, and it seems the Luftwaffe did all that was expected of it in 1941.

Whoever lost Barbarossa, it wasn't Goering.

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Re: Did Göring Lose the War for Hitler?

#22

Post by pugsville » 03 Jan 2017, 05:34

steevh wrote: Its pretty clear the Luftwaffe was the top European air force until 1942.
.
On what basis? The Luftwaffe did some things better some things worse.

The Luftwaffe had a tactical, technical and operation edge earlier an there pre war designs were generally more mature and better, but most of that started to slip away. But there was more to be an effective air force than just technical and tactical operational aspects, losing at the Luftwaffe more strategically and longer term operational organisation it was more problematic and behind the RAF. And tis is were I am critical of Goring because surely tis sort of stuff was really this true role, and out of 10 how would you rate his long term strategic management of the organisation?Organisationally the Luftwaffe was poor. Poor development of new designs, poor operational intelligence, poor pilot management and training,

RAF was a better organisation throughout the war.
steevh wrote: They also fielded some of the best planes produced during the war, and were pioneers in fighter development, rocket planes, air-to-air missiles, cruise missiles (V1) and so on.
Sure but they also for the vast bulk of the war run with the designs produced before the war. The Luftwaffe's development of new designs through the war was generally very poor. me-109, me110,ju-52,ju-87,ju-88, he111 what truly significant new aircraft was brought into service in real numbers fw-190? What else? for most of the war the Luftwaffe new aircraft development projects were failure after failure.

The RAF was also a jet pioneer and for most of the war rolled out a large numbers of good new designs. Despite the propaganda and hype of the very late war Luftwaffe wonder aircraft, through the war as a whole the Luftwaffe were very poor in the development of new aircraft.

steevh wrote: Like Hitler, Goering presided over both Germany's greatest successes and greatest failures. Portraying him as a bumbling drug addict and amateur accords with the absurd historical stereotyping to which all the top Nazis were subject, but ignores the fact that in December 1941, the Allies only hung on by the skin of their teeth.
Yes Goring was much smarter than the bumbler he is portrayed by some as. But his was mainly a political player, and was very much into self aggrandisement, and had his fingers in almost every pie, he was stretched pretty thin, what I would criticise Goring for was that his empire building was hardly the way for a streamlined effective industry (private fiefs, cronyism were rife in the Nazi regime) but Goring was perhaps the greatest operator in this respect. He vast interests whether commercial , private and political all must have severely reduced his time to be an effective manager of the Luftwaffe.
steevh wrote: The Luftwaffe suffered from a pilot shortage in the later stages of the war, and were outproduced by the Allies in planes. German efforts to reorganize war industry from 1942 on were successful, but not as successful as Allied efforts.
German war industry suffered from overly grandiose plans, rampant cronyism, private empire building, unrealistic directives from above, and poor co-ordination.
steevh wrote: I'd be interested to see any research you can point to on Goering's supposed incompetence, especially any critical decisions he got wrong.
Mainly selection decision makers, and lack of real strategic direction. The Nazi regime was full of rampant cronyism at the top, or the selection of yes men.


steevh wrote: Everyone already knows the picture of Hitler's interference in Me 262 production presented by Speer and others.
Mythical. Speer cannot be trusted.eh Me262 was delayed almost totally to do with development the engines. Which remained hugely problematical even when in service.

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Re: Did Göring Lose the War for Hitler?

#23

Post by steevh » 03 Jan 2017, 14:34

pugsville wrote:
steevh wrote: Its pretty clear the Luftwaffe was the top European air force until 1942.
.
On what basis? The Luftwaffe did some things better some things worse.

The Luftwaffe had a tactical, technical and operation edge earlier an there pre war designs were generally more mature and better, but most of that started to slip away. But there was more to be an effective air force than just technical and tactical operational aspects, losing at the Luftwaffe more strategically and longer term operational organisation it was more problematic and behind the RAF. And tis is were I am critical of Goring because surely tis sort of stuff was really this true role, and out of 10 how would you rate his long term strategic management of the organisation?Organisationally the Luftwaffe was poor. Poor development of new designs, poor operational intelligence, poor pilot management and training,

RAF was a better organisation throughout the war.
steevh wrote: They also fielded some of the best planes produced during the war, and were pioneers in fighter development, rocket planes, air-to-air missiles, cruise missiles (V1) and so on.
Sure but they also for the vast bulk of the war run with the designs produced before the war. The Luftwaffe's development of new designs through the war was generally very poor. me-109, me110,ju-52,ju-87,ju-88, he111 what truly significant new aircraft was brought into service in real numbers fw-190? What else? for most of the war the Luftwaffe new aircraft development projects were failure after failure.

The RAF was also a jet pioneer and for most of the war rolled out a large numbers of good new designs. Despite the propaganda and hype of the very late war Luftwaffe wonder aircraft, through the war as a whole the Luftwaffe were very poor in the development of new aircraft.

steevh wrote: Like Hitler, Goering presided over both Germany's greatest successes and greatest failures. Portraying him as a bumbling drug addict and amateur accords with the absurd historical stereotyping to which all the top Nazis were subject, but ignores the fact that in December 1941, the Allies only hung on by the skin of their teeth.
Yes Goring was much smarter than the bumbler he is portrayed by some as. But his was mainly a political player, and was very much into self aggrandisement, and had his fingers in almost every pie, he was stretched pretty thin, what I would criticise Goring for was that his empire building was hardly the way for a streamlined effective industry (private fiefs, cronyism were rife in the Nazi regime) but Goring was perhaps the greatest operator in this respect. He vast interests whether commercial , private and political all must have severely reduced his time to be an effective manager of the Luftwaffe.
steevh wrote: The Luftwaffe suffered from a pilot shortage in the later stages of the war, and were outproduced by the Allies in planes. German efforts to reorganize war industry from 1942 on were successful, but not as successful as Allied efforts.
German war industry suffered from overly grandiose plans, rampant cronyism, private empire building, unrealistic directives from above, and poor co-ordination.
steevh wrote: I'd be interested to see any research you can point to on Goering's supposed incompetence, especially any critical decisions he got wrong.
Mainly selection decision makers, and lack of real strategic direction. The Nazi regime was full of rampant cronyism at the top, or the selection of yes men.


steevh wrote: Everyone already knows the picture of Hitler's interference in Me 262 production presented by Speer and others.

Mythical. Speer cannot be trusted.eh Me262 was delayed almost totally to do with development the engines. Which remained hugely problematical even when in service.
So, you dispute each comment I made, but does that have any relevance to the question in hand, which is "Did Goering lose the war for Hitler?"

I'm arguing that he didn't, but I can't see that you're arguing that he did.

Consequently, I'm not about to defend any of my assertions.

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Re: Did Göring Lose the War for Hitler?

#24

Post by pugsville » 03 Jan 2017, 16:20

steevh wrote:
So, you dispute each comment I made, but does that have any relevance to the question in hand, which is "Did Goering lose the war for Hitler?"

I'm arguing that he didn't, but I can't see that you're arguing that he did.

Consequently, I'm not about to defend any of my assertions.
NO i was not disputing everything you said, just one of it, some of it was more commentary than contradiction. Goering was a significant political leader and the jovial bumbler is easy stereotype, that belies how much power he really had,

NO i don't think Goring lost the war for hitler, but he was certainly the most glaring example of cronyism, private fiefdoms, corruption that was systematic of the Nazi regime, which certainly undermined the effectiveness off the their war machine. And while he might not of lost the war personally he was far from a good effective strategic manager of Luftwaffe, and must bear some of the blame for the strategic failings and poor organisational structures that are often overlooked with the focus of the Good points of the Luftwaffe, tactical ,a technical, operations which was often very good.

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Re: Did Göring Lose the War for Hitler?

#25

Post by steevh » 03 Jan 2017, 21:51

pugsville wrote:
steevh wrote:
So, you dispute each comment I made, but does that have any relevance to the question in hand, which is "Did Goering lose the war for Hitler?"

I'm arguing that he didn't, but I can't see that you're arguing that he did.

Consequently, I'm not about to defend any of my assertions.
NO i was not disputing everything you said, just one of it, some of it was more commentary than contradiction. Goering was a significant political leader and the jovial bumbler is easy stereotype, that belies how much power he really had,

NO i don't think Goring lost the war for hitler, but he was certainly the most glaring example of cronyism, private fiefdoms, corruption that was systematic of the Nazi regime, which certainly undermined the effectiveness off the their war machine. And while he might not of lost the war personally he was far from a good effective strategic manager of Luftwaffe, and must bear some of the blame for the strategic failings and poor organisational structures that are often overlooked with the focus of the Good points of the Luftwaffe, tactical ,a technical, operations which was often very good.
Ah, ok.

Goering certainly faded after 1942, but I don't know that that was his fault. Hitler was always looking for scapegoats from that point on.

Cronyism and private fiefdoms seem to have been a core feature of Nazism: Hitler always saw everything in a political light, which might have seemed like genius up until 1939, but didnt do the Germans any favors once the war became serious. Goering had many of the same vices and virtues as his leader.

The same focus on niche weaponry, rather than mass-produced workhorses, affected all branches of the German war machine.

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