Barbarossa

[waldzee]

Some of us post the on line links:
http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,3490049_page_0,00.html
& find that the Ukraine history section you are referring to is not yet published...

[rendulic]

A number of us, Ijadw & others, spend a lot of time providing easily accessable references to refine, or in rare cases , refute some 'dubious history'.
I am cutting back my posts to a minimun, as I am tired of oddball challenges that flout the Board rules of research.

"Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg Band 8 Die Ostfront 1943/1944 Der Krieg im Osten und an den Nebenfronten, DVA 2011 pp 61-62. " is not an accessable source.

The book I referred to is actually a volume of what can be considered the official german history of the second world war.
Easy to get on amazon.de . Those that are well informed will know this voluminous series to which among others contributed Karl-Heinz Frieser who is wellknown to those that know german historians.
I therefore suspect you consider it alledgedly not easily accessible because it is in german.

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Your inablity to post any supporting on line links leads me to believe its just another 'Unkel Adoph's Kabun' account of the looting of Ukraine.
My German is sketchy. My Father's was extremely good. So, good, he was detailed to interview death camp guards in April 1945.
Revisionist Anti bellum pap pulp has a certain following...

Read the review on the link I provide and you will realise that considering this very scholarly work as 'anti bellum pap pulp' is tantamount to you committing intellectual suicide. Your statement about not giving online line links seems to indicate that actually buying a paper book is something you do not like. It is not because we live in the internet area that reading printed books is something of the past.
http://warandgame.com/2009/03/15/h-net- ... enfronten/

[rendulic]

Some of us post the on line links:
http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,3490049_page_0,00.html
& find that the Ukraine history section you are referring to is not yet published...

Some of us actually buy books and read them.

[waldzee]

A number of us, Ijadw & others, spend a lot of time providing easily accessable references to refine, or in rare cases , refute some 'dubious history'.
I am cutting back my posts to a minimun, as I am tired of oddball challenges that flout the Board rules of research.

"Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg Band 8 Die Ostfront 1943/1944 Der Krieg im Osten und an den Nebenfronten, DVA 2011 pp 61-62. " is not an accessable source.

The book I referred to is actually a volume of what can be considered the official german history of the second world war.
Easy to get on amazon.de . Those that are well informed will know this voluminous series to which among others contributed Karl-Heinz Frieser who is wellknown to those that know german historians.
I therefore suspect you consider it alledgedly not easily accessible because it is in german.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Your inablity to post any supporting on line links leads me to believe its just another 'Unkel Adoph's Kabun' account of the looting of Ukraine.
My German is sketchy. My Father's was extremely good. So, good, he was detailed to interview death camp guards in April 1945.
Revisionist Anti bellum pap pulp has a certain following...

Read the review on the link I provide and you will realise that considering this very scholarly work as 'anti bellum pap pulp' is tantamount to you committing intellectual suicide. Your statement about not giving online line links seems to indicate that actually buying a paper book is something you do not like. It is not because we live in the internet area that reading printed books is something of the past.
http://warandgame.com/2009/03/15/h-net- ... enfronten/

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Your bizarre 'interpetations' of Ukraine as a a land of busy happy peasants guarded by Nazi cavaliers have nothing to do with the text.

[Urmel]

Some of us post the on line links:
http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,3490049_page_0,00.html
& find that the Ukraine history section you are referring to is not yet published...

a) Did you even read the article you linked? If so, did you note it dates from 4 (!) years ago?
b) Where does it even say it hasn't been published?

From your link:

Part 10 of the war history, which has just come out in two volumes, examines the collapse of the Third Reich in 1945. The entire history, "Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg" (The German Reich and the Second World War), was researched by the German military history unit MGFA, which is now based in Potsdam near Berlin. The project began in 1978.

It's bad enough if people believe internet links trump books. It's even worse if they either (i) don't bother to read their own links; or (ii) don't understand them.

I second the remark by Rendulic on 'intellectual suicide'.

In any case, enough of this nonsense. Every volume has been published in German. The English translations of the later volumes are in progress:

https://portal.dnb.de/opac.htm;jsession ... tegory=any

[rendulic]

Some of us post the on line links:
http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,3490049_page_0,00.html
& find that the Ukraine history section you are referring to is not yet published...

And the section written by Prof Dr Bernd Wegner I referred to is about the genesis of the Kursk battle. I mentioned before that Hitler's statement concerning the importance of the Donets area and Nikopol for the german war economy was part of the history of the Kursk battle.
Quoting from something that is not published would be hardly possible.

[rendulic]

A number of us, Ijadw & others, spend a lot of time providing easily accessable references to refine, or in rare cases , refute some 'dubious history'.
I am cutting back my posts to a minimun, as I am tired of oddball challenges that flout the Board rules of research.

"Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg Band 8 Die Ostfront 1943/1944 Der Krieg im Osten und an den Nebenfronten, DVA 2011 pp 61-62. " is not an accessable source.

The book I referred to is actually a volume of what can be considered the official german history of the second world war.
Easy to get on amazon.de . Those that are well informed will know this voluminous series to which among others contributed Karl-Heinz Frieser who is wellknown to those that know german historians.
I therefore suspect you consider it alledgedly not easily accessible because it is in german.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Your inablity to post any supporting on line links leads me to believe its just another 'Unkel Adoph's Kabun' account of the looting of Ukraine.
My German is sketchy. My Father's was extremely good. So, good, he was detailed to interview death camp guards in April 1945.
Revisionist Anti bellum pap pulp has a certain following...

Read the review on the link I provide and you will realise that considering this very scholarly work as 'anti bellum pap pulp' is tantamount to you committing intellectual suicide. Your statement about not giving online line links seems to indicate that actually buying a paper book is something you do not like. It is not because we live in the internet area that reading printed books is something of the past.
http://warandgame.com/2009/03/15/h-net- ... enfronten/

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Your bizarre 'interpetations' of Ukraine as a a land of busy happy peasants guarded by Nazi cavaliers have nothing to do with the text.

I think I stated that the Donets area contributed to the german war economy as evidenced by a statement made by Hitler.
The bizarre interpretation you give to that is a sign of your frustration. You are in a very deep hole and making it only deeper by giving bizarre interpretations to my statements.

[ljadw]

I have the book in question,and it is NOT giving any information about the importance of the manganese ore of Nikopol,or the power plant of Zaporoz'e.

Not a smart move by you as notes 3, and 4 at the bottom of pages 61 and 62 do give exactly that information. Under note 3 Bernd Wegnerr writes that Hitlers attitude got support from the chief of the Wehrmachtwirtschaftsstabes(Ausl) who stated on 31.03.1943 that the loss of Saporoshje would mean the breaking down of the war economical power not only of the area to the east of the Dnjepr but also to the west of the Dnjepr.
Under note 4 Wegner writes that ,in spite of the fact that the manganese production was only half of that before the war, it could still cover the entire need of the Reich for manganese.
These notes are sourced to two books on german economic policy, including Geschichte der deutschen Kriegswirtschaft, Eichhloz,vol. 2.
These notes concern the mention by Wegner of the rejecting by Hitler in the beginning of 1943 of the propsal to give up terrain because he particularly considered the coal of Stalino, the powerplant of Saporoshe and the manganese ore of Nikopol of decisive importance. According to Hitler the loss of ore would in itself mean the losss of the war. This statement is sourced to the war diary of Armygroup South.

Of topic,irrelevant and meaningless points :the notes 3 and 4 give us nothing :it is NOT indicating how much Zaporoz'e was producing for Germany(it only started to produce in january 1943),not how much the Germans had to invest .The same for Nikopol.
Whatever,the loss of Nikopol and Zaporoz'e did NOT result in the collaps of the German war economy .
On 16 may,you said that a lot was effectively done in the area of economic exploitation.Now,we are interested insome exemples,not in what Hitler was saying.
Thus,how many manganese ore was produced?
How many electricity was produced at Zaporoz'e?
How many tons of coal at Stalino ?
What did all this cost to Germany,and what was the gain ?
In 1942,Germany was importing for some 482.7 million of RM from the SU,less (much less) than from
Belgium :705 million
the Netherlands:857 milion
Hungary :540.9 million
France:1.404 million
Italy:1.022 million
While these figures are only giving amounts in money,not in weight,they are questioning your claims that
a)the Germans had done a lot in the area of economic exploitation(for which you have given no proof)
b) the German investments were yielding a lot and were essential for Germany (for which you have given no proof)
The source of my figures :The Legacy of Fortress Europe:Table 1:German trade with continental Europe during WWII
I forgot :in 1942,Germany was importing less from the SU than in 1940(545 million RM)

[waldzee]

Some of us post the on line links:
http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,3490049_page_0,00.html
& find that the Ukraine history section you are referring to is not yet published...

a) Did you even read the article you linked? If so, did you note it dates from 4 (!) years ago?
b) Where does it even say it hasn't been published?

From your link:

Part 10 of the war history, which has just come out in two volumes, examines the collapse of the Third Reich in 1945. The entire history, "Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg" (The German Reich and the Second World War), was researched by the German military history unit MGFA, which is now based in Potsdam near Berlin. The project began in 1978.

It's bad enough if people believe internet links trump books. It's even worse if they either (i) don't bother to read their own links; or (ii) don't understand them.

I second the remark by Rendulic on 'intellectual suicide'.

In any case, enough of this nonsense. Every volume has been published in German. The English translations of the later volumes are in progress:

https://portal.dnb.de/opac.htm;jsession ... tegory=any

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'Fess up Urmel .You haven't read the text . You & the general are pulling random exerpts to try to prove the' Ukraine wartime Antebellum myth. '
Koch's SA admin. was a shambles, & by 1943 Ulraine was a Nazi Death Camp.
Intellectual honesty still matters to some of us.

[ljadw]

About volume 8 of Germany and the second World War :I find it questionable to claim (of course without proofs) that one can buy it easily at E Bay (for what price ?):I was able to buy my copy when I was in Cologne(for 50 euro);I doubt it is accessible in Belgium,and,if it was,the price would be enormous :some time ago ,I tried to buy "the Bread of affliction",but,I could not afford it (the price was some 150 euro).
I would not be surprised that a German edition of Germany and WWII would be very costly in Canada.
And,no one (unless he killed a rich uncle) can afford an English translation of Germany and WWII.:an English translation cost 408 $,and,there are 10 volumes .

[rendulic]

I have the book in question,and it is NOT giving any information about the importance of the manganese ore of Nikopol,or the power plant of Zaporoz'e.

Not a smart move by you as notes 3, and 4 at the bottom of pages 61 and 62 do give exactly that information. Under note 3 Bernd Wegnerr writes that Hitlers attitude got support from the chief of the Wehrmachtwirtschaftsstabes(Ausl) who stated on 31.03.1943 that the loss of Saporoshje would mean the breaking down of the war economical power not only of the area to the east of the Dnjepr but also to the west of the Dnjepr.
Under note 4 Wegner writes that ,in spite of the fact that the manganese production was only half of that before the war, it could still cover the entire need of the Reich for manganese.
These notes are sourced to two books on german economic policy, including Geschichte der deutschen Kriegswirtschaft, Eichhloz,vol. 2.
These notes concern the mention by Wegner of the rejecting by Hitler in the beginning of 1943 of the propsal to give up terrain because he particularly considered the coal of Stalino, the powerplant of Saporoshe and the manganese ore of Nikopol of decisive importance. According to Hitler the loss of ore would in itself mean the losss of the war. This statement is sourced to the war diary of Armygroup South.

Of topic,irrelevant and meaningless points :the notes 3 and 4 give us nothing :it is NOT indicating how much Zaporoz'e was producing for Germany(it only started to produce in january 1943),not how much the Germans had to invest .The same for Nikopol.
Whatever,the loss of Nikopol and Zaporoz'e did NOT result in the collaps of the German war economy .
On 16 may,you said that a lot was effectively done in the area of economic exploitation.Now,we are interested insome exemples,not in what Hitler was saying.

After being found out you now change your story. Prof. Wegner refers to a specific statement by the chief of Wehrmachfwirrtschafststab on the effect of the loss of the Saproshe power plant on war production east and west of the Dnjepr. He also makes a specific statement about Nikopol. Very ontopic and sourced to two works on economy and the german military archives. It is not forbidden to you to acquire these books to know more.
Anyway, what Wegner writes is sufficient to support my statement that the USSR was already contributing to the german war effort. That Adolf Hitler was overstating his case to bluff Manstein is obvious but it is also obvious that your statement that it would take years for the occupied terrotories to contribute to the german war effort is also completely wrong.

[rendulic]

About volume 8 of Germany and the second World War :I find it questionable to claim (of course without proofs) that one can buy it easily at E Bay (for what price ?):I was able to buy my copy when I was in Cologne(for 50 euro);I doubt it is accessible in Belgium,and,if it was,the price would be enormous :some time ago ,I tried to buy "the Bread of affliction",but,I could not afford it (the price was some 150 euro).
I would not be surprised that a German edition of Germany and WWII would be very costly in Canada.
And,no one (unless he killed a rich uncle) can afford an English translation of Germany and WWII.:an English translation cost 408 $,and,there are 10 volumes .

It is easily acquired on amazon.de and the price is reasonable for a 1200 page book. Anyway, if someone chooses not to buy a book then the individual should desist from making statements about it.

[rendulic]

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'Fess up Urmel .You haven't read the text . You & the general are pulling random exerpts to try to prove the' Ukraine wartime Antebellum myth. '
Koch's SA admin. was a shambles, & by 1943 Ulraine was a Nazi Death Camp.
Intellectual honesty still matters to some of us.

Intellectual honesty means not branding well researched scholarly works as pap. The statement that the Ukraine did contribute to the german war effort is wellsourced.

[Urmel]

About volume 8 of Germany and the second World War :I find it questionable to claim (of course without proofs) that one can buy it easily at E Bay (for what price ?):I was able to buy my copy when I was in Cologne(for 50 euro);I doubt it is accessible in Belgium,and,if it was,the price would be enormous :some time ago ,I tried to buy "the Bread of affliction",but,I could not afford it (the price was some 150 euro).
I would not be surprised that a German edition of Germany and WWII would be very costly in Canada.
And,no one (unless he killed a rich uncle) can afford an English translation of Germany and WWII.:an English translation cost 408 $,and,there are 10 volumes .

You go to Amazon.de. I live in the UK and can buy it for the normal EUR49+p&p

http://www.amazon.de/Deutsche-Reich-Zwe ... pd_sim_b_1

Anyone who has looked into these books know those are bargain prices.

I agree on the point you make for those who are unlucky enough not to speak German.

[waldzee]

About volume 8 of Germany and the second World War :I find it questionable to claim (of course without proofs) that one can buy it easily at E Bay (for what price ?):I was able to buy my copy when I was in Cologne(for 50 euro);I doubt it is accessible in Belgium,and,if it was,the price would be enormous :some time ago ,I tried to buy "the Bread of affliction",but,I could not afford it (the price was some 150 euro).
I would not be surprised that a German edition of Germany and WWII would be very costly in Canada.
And,no one (unless he killed a rich uncle) can afford an English translation of Germany and WWII.:an English translation cost 408 $,and,there are 10 volumes .

You go to Amazon.de. I live in the UK and can buy it for the normal EUR49+p&p

http://www.amazon.de/Deutsche-Reich-Zwe ... pd_sim_b_1

Anyone who has looked into these books know those are bargain prices.

I agree on the point you make for those who are unlucky enough not to speak German.

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You & General R raised the book as' proof' less than twelve hours ago of Nazi benevolence & wartime economic success in Ukraine- which it is not-( by all posted reviews.
)Try gracefully bowing out instead of 'smoke screening'.
Esp. since you haven't read the text yourself...