Wehrwolf or Werwolf?
Re: Wehrwolf or Werwolf?
I fully agree with Martin - it appears that his research provides a very strong case that is hard to deny! Sometimes words, even in German, are invented to describe new phenomena, especially in wartime situations. Also, I was wondering when he was going to Korsun again and whether he still needs to use those rolls of microfilm he borrowed from me?
Regards,
Doug Nash
Regards,
Doug Nash
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Re: Wehrwolf or Werwolf?
Another one to keep you convinced....
A document by SS-Ustuf. und Dientsstellenleiter Karl DANNER, made on 25.1.1943. The subject of the letter is a local Ukrainian woman who made use of forged documents and has to be (for 5 days) emprisoned. Remarkable is the fact that the Geh.Feldpolizei - Gruppe RSD - Dst. Sicherungsgruppe Ost, here (and in following documents) makes use of the Feldpostnummer: 27 551, which is the FPN belonging to: 3.Kp.Ldschtz.Btl.318, the unit guarding the site while the Führerhauptquartier is located back in FHQu "Wolfsschanze".
PS: once again.... "W E H R W O L F" is spelled WITH '-H' !!!!!!
Martin
PS: in my book about the FHQu "Wehrwolf" also will be an appendix with ALL FPN traced into the mail documents by the RSD. Until today, I've found and traced 63 FPN in the archives - all related to the construction and/or working of the FHQu "Wehrwolf"!
Keep tuned !!!
A document by SS-Ustuf. und Dientsstellenleiter Karl DANNER, made on 25.1.1943. The subject of the letter is a local Ukrainian woman who made use of forged documents and has to be (for 5 days) emprisoned. Remarkable is the fact that the Geh.Feldpolizei - Gruppe RSD - Dst. Sicherungsgruppe Ost, here (and in following documents) makes use of the Feldpostnummer: 27 551, which is the FPN belonging to: 3.Kp.Ldschtz.Btl.318, the unit guarding the site while the Führerhauptquartier is located back in FHQu "Wolfsschanze".
PS: once again.... "W E H R W O L F" is spelled WITH '-H' !!!!!!
Martin
PS: in my book about the FHQu "Wehrwolf" also will be an appendix with ALL FPN traced into the mail documents by the RSD. Until today, I've found and traced 63 FPN in the archives - all related to the construction and/or working of the FHQu "Wehrwolf"!
Keep tuned !!!
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Re: Wehrwolf or Werwolf?
Hi to all!
For my research I received today a copy of the "Der Dienstkalender Heinrich Himmlers 1941/42". The first thing I checked was the spelling of "WEHRWOLF" as done by the RFSS in 1942.
And YES: the first example on page 500:
Montag, 27. Juli 1942
[G:] 12.30 Start mit Storch zum Fhr. H. Qu.
14.15 Essen beim Führer
[Vortragsnotiz Himmlers:]96
Vortrag b. Führer
Wehrwolf 27. VII. 1942.
Well, well.... so even the RFSS became a comrade and colleague in what is called "my biggest mistake" !
As my "Visitor's Tour Guide to the FHQu "Wehrwolf" is nearly ready (in English and in Russian) - will soon open a separate thread on it! Keep posted!
Martin
For my research I received today a copy of the "Der Dienstkalender Heinrich Himmlers 1941/42". The first thing I checked was the spelling of "WEHRWOLF" as done by the RFSS in 1942.
And YES: the first example on page 500:
Montag, 27. Juli 1942
[G:] 12.30 Start mit Storch zum Fhr. H. Qu.
14.15 Essen beim Führer
[Vortragsnotiz Himmlers:]96
Vortrag b. Führer
Wehrwolf 27. VII. 1942.
Well, well.... so even the RFSS became a comrade and colleague in what is called "my biggest mistake" !
As my "Visitor's Tour Guide to the FHQu "Wehrwolf" is nearly ready (in English and in Russian) - will soon open a separate thread on it! Keep posted!
Martin
Re: Wehrwolf or Werwolf?
Certainly a case supported by period documents! That's always nice to see.
/Marcus
/Marcus
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Re: Wehrwolf or Werwolf?
Documentation of the Bundesarchiv:
http://www.bundesarchiv.de/oeffentlichk ... ex.html.de
Die wichtigsten Führerhauptquartiere waren:
Name, Lage
"Wolfsschanze", Forst Görlitz bei Rastenburg
"Felsennest", Rodert bei Bad Münstereifel
"Wolfsschlucht I", Brûly-de-Pesche (Belgien)
"Wolfsschlucht II", Margival bei Soissons
"Tannenberg", Kniebis (Schwarzwald)
"We(h)rwolf" ("Eichenhain"), Winniza (Ukraine)
"Wiesental" (Teilobjekt von Adlerhorst), Ziegenberg (Bad Nauheim)
"Anlage Süd", Krosno (Polen)
"Adlerhorst", Ziegenberg (Bad Nauheim)
"Waldwiese", Glan-Münchweiler (Pfalz)
"Askania Mitte" ("Anlage Mitte"), Östlich von Lódz (Litzmannstadt)
"Askania Süd" ("Anlage Süd"), Strzyzow und Stepina-Cieszyna bei Krosno
"Bärenhöhle", Smolensk
"Hagen" ("Siegfried"), Pullach bei München
"Wasserburg", Pleskau
Even the Bundesarchiv is non-committal with both spellings Werwolf and Wehrwolf.
You should bear the fact in mind ! I think it is a mistake to conceal the quite common diction Werwolf !
Dieter Zinke
http://www.bundesarchiv.de/oeffentlichk ... ex.html.de
Die wichtigsten Führerhauptquartiere waren:
Name, Lage
"Wolfsschanze", Forst Görlitz bei Rastenburg
"Felsennest", Rodert bei Bad Münstereifel
"Wolfsschlucht I", Brûly-de-Pesche (Belgien)
"Wolfsschlucht II", Margival bei Soissons
"Tannenberg", Kniebis (Schwarzwald)
"We(h)rwolf" ("Eichenhain"), Winniza (Ukraine)
"Wiesental" (Teilobjekt von Adlerhorst), Ziegenberg (Bad Nauheim)
"Anlage Süd", Krosno (Polen)
"Adlerhorst", Ziegenberg (Bad Nauheim)
"Waldwiese", Glan-Münchweiler (Pfalz)
"Askania Mitte" ("Anlage Mitte"), Östlich von Lódz (Litzmannstadt)
"Askania Süd" ("Anlage Süd"), Strzyzow und Stepina-Cieszyna bei Krosno
"Bärenhöhle", Smolensk
"Hagen" ("Siegfried"), Pullach bei München
"Wasserburg", Pleskau
Even the Bundesarchiv is non-committal with both spellings Werwolf and Wehrwolf.
You should bear the fact in mind ! I think it is a mistake to conceal the quite common diction Werwolf !
Dieter Zinke
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Re: Wehrwolf or Werwolf?
Hi Dieter!
I know and are aware of this argument! BUT... the Bundesarchiv also makes some mistakes now and then! E.g. they have photo captions that are completely mistaken.... Or with mistakes in their dates in the captions.
As I mentioned here already, there were even in 1942 / 43 two versions: the one as choosen by the Führer with '-h' (Wehrwolf) and the classical version of the word without '-h' (Werwolf). I never concealed the use of the word without '-h'. Check this thread; I published a period RSD-document where the Beamte used the word "Werwolf".
The "Wehrwolf" version took some time to be adopted in the period documents; however, the classical (or correctly spelled) word "Werwolf" was in use with the Staff of the OKH (in Winniza). I already pointed out that these (classical educated) Generals stubbornly kept using the spelling "Werwolf".
And in fact, both spellings were used throughout the war, hence its use in the Bundesarchiv in the post war period.
That's my only point, I keep a huge library and almost 5.000 period documents from the RSD (SS-Gruf. Rattenhuber's men) form the KGB archives. Most of the books and documents now are done after 1945. It is very hard to dig out the correct word in this case.
Anyway, I stay put at "Wehrwolf" (with '-h') as this is the original one, choosen by Adolf Hitler on July 16th 1942, the day of his arrival at the site "Eichenhain".
Another thing: one also can start a such thread with the question: "Wolfschanze" (1 '-s') versus "Wolfsschanze" (with 2 '-ss') ! I'll bet you'll end up in the same discussion!
Many thanks for your support!
As my "Visitor's Tour Guide to the FHQu "Wehrwolf" is nearly ready (in English and in Russian) - will soon open a separate thread on it! Keep posted!
Martin
I know and are aware of this argument! BUT... the Bundesarchiv also makes some mistakes now and then! E.g. they have photo captions that are completely mistaken.... Or with mistakes in their dates in the captions.
As I mentioned here already, there were even in 1942 / 43 two versions: the one as choosen by the Führer with '-h' (Wehrwolf) and the classical version of the word without '-h' (Werwolf). I never concealed the use of the word without '-h'. Check this thread; I published a period RSD-document where the Beamte used the word "Werwolf".
The "Wehrwolf" version took some time to be adopted in the period documents; however, the classical (or correctly spelled) word "Werwolf" was in use with the Staff of the OKH (in Winniza). I already pointed out that these (classical educated) Generals stubbornly kept using the spelling "Werwolf".
And in fact, both spellings were used throughout the war, hence its use in the Bundesarchiv in the post war period.
That's my only point, I keep a huge library and almost 5.000 period documents from the RSD (SS-Gruf. Rattenhuber's men) form the KGB archives. Most of the books and documents now are done after 1945. It is very hard to dig out the correct word in this case.
Anyway, I stay put at "Wehrwolf" (with '-h') as this is the original one, choosen by Adolf Hitler on July 16th 1942, the day of his arrival at the site "Eichenhain".
Another thing: one also can start a such thread with the question: "Wolfschanze" (1 '-s') versus "Wolfsschanze" (with 2 '-ss') ! I'll bet you'll end up in the same discussion!
Many thanks for your support!
As my "Visitor's Tour Guide to the FHQu "Wehrwolf" is nearly ready (in English and in Russian) - will soon open a separate thread on it! Keep posted!
Martin
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Re: Wehrwolf or Werwolf?
Hurray!!! My Tour Guides is OUT and AVAILABLE.... check it out here:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4#p1824214
Best wishes - Martin / Andrew
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4#p1824214
Best wishes - Martin / Andrew
Re: Wehrwolf or Werwolf?
I may be a bit late with this but i'm translating Löns book presently. From what I read he intentionally spelled it "wehr" as a play on words for a military power. It being at the height of prewar nationalism.
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Re: Wehrwolf or Werwolf?
Hello !
Tomorrow, the most recent issue of the famous journal "After the Battle" Nr 171 will be released. It contains a 20-page article about FHQu "Wehrwolf". With lots of pictures, maps and an actual and correct layout of Sperrrkreis 1.
Check out the sample pages under:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=220560
Kind regards - Martin
Tomorrow, the most recent issue of the famous journal "After the Battle" Nr 171 will be released. It contains a 20-page article about FHQu "Wehrwolf". With lots of pictures, maps and an actual and correct layout of Sperrrkreis 1.
Check out the sample pages under:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=220560
Kind regards - Martin
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Re: Wehrwolf or Werwolf?
Just received a copy of a study titled: "Der Wehmachtführungsstab im Führerhauptquartier 1939 - 1945" (Inaugural-Dissertation zur Erlangung der Doktorwürde der Philosophischen Fakultät der Rheinischen Friedrich-Wilhelms-Universität zu BONN) by Mr. Franz Josef SCHOTT. This study was published in 1980.
Mr SCHOTT also studied and analyzed the evolution of the WFSt and its place and use in the diverse FHQ. He is using throughout his complete text the correct name : WEHRWOLF...
On page 33 : "Die Anlage bei Winniza erhielt von Hitler den Namen "Wehrwolf"... and refers to Note 76:
76) Zur Schreibweise "Wehrwolf": Laut WIEN, Ein Leben, 283, ordnete HITLER ausdrücklich die Schreibweise "Wehrwolf" mit "h" an.
Mr SCHOTT here is referring to the book: WIEN O.: "Ein Leben und viermal Deutschland. Erinnerungen aus siebzig Lebensjahren 1906 - 1976". Düsseldorf 1978. WIEN was an officer in Generalstab and became Oberst a.D.
Once again, the historical and correct codename for these headquarters is "Wehrwolf" - WITH "h". The problem is that is not a classical word in Gerrman vocabulary and thus (already in 1942) often misspelled or abused in WH documents as "Werwolf". After the war, most authors copied and re-used also the misspelled name. This can also be observed in originall GFP-RSD (Rattenhuber's men) documents. In the early days they used "Werwolf" but were gradually correcting their documents (from Autumn 1942 on) to "Wehrwolf".
Martin
Mr SCHOTT also studied and analyzed the evolution of the WFSt and its place and use in the diverse FHQ. He is using throughout his complete text the correct name : WEHRWOLF...
On page 33 : "Die Anlage bei Winniza erhielt von Hitler den Namen "Wehrwolf"... and refers to Note 76:
76) Zur Schreibweise "Wehrwolf": Laut WIEN, Ein Leben, 283, ordnete HITLER ausdrücklich die Schreibweise "Wehrwolf" mit "h" an.
Mr SCHOTT here is referring to the book: WIEN O.: "Ein Leben und viermal Deutschland. Erinnerungen aus siebzig Lebensjahren 1906 - 1976". Düsseldorf 1978. WIEN was an officer in Generalstab and became Oberst a.D.
Once again, the historical and correct codename for these headquarters is "Wehrwolf" - WITH "h". The problem is that is not a classical word in Gerrman vocabulary and thus (already in 1942) often misspelled or abused in WH documents as "Werwolf". After the war, most authors copied and re-used also the misspelled name. This can also be observed in originall GFP-RSD (Rattenhuber's men) documents. In the early days they used "Werwolf" but were gradually correcting their documents (from Autumn 1942 on) to "Wehrwolf".
Martin
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Re: Wehrwolf or Werwolf?
Another example is the name of "WEHRWOLF" as the name of the "Blatt des Jungnationalen Bundes". I acquired a nice copy dated Ostern / April 1925 (4. Jahr). So the magazine went out already in 1921.
I guess they copied this name and orthography from the already discussed book: "Der Wehrwolf - Eine Bauernchronik" by Hermann Löns.
Martin
I guess they copied this name and orthography from the already discussed book: "Der Wehrwolf - Eine Bauernchronik" by Hermann Löns.
Martin
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Re: Wehrwolf or Werwolf?
Well... received the book "Ein Leben und viermal Deutschland" by Otto Wien (1978). Wien was a Luftwaffe-officer and served from 1938 in the 'Generalstab'.
Wien served in the "Abt L des OKW/WFSt" and thus inside the Führerhauptquartier. In his excellent book he states on page 283:
"Das "Führerhauptquartier" wurde nach Ostpreußen in die Nähe der Stadt Rastenburg verlegt und erhielt dort den Namen "Wolfsschanze". Dieses Wort hatte Hitler selbst erfunden (und sich vielleicht darunter auch etwas vorgestellt).
Er bevorzugte für seine Hauptquartiere Namen wie "Wolfsschlucht", "Wolfsschanze", "Wehrwolf". Manchmal bestimmte er sogar die Schreibweise: Der Begriff des Werwolfs (= Mannwolf) war ihm anscheinend nicht ganz klar oder er entsprach nicht seiner subjektiven Vorstellung von einem "wehrhaften Geiste"; daher gab er einen internen Befehl, daß der Name seines Hauptquartiers mit "h" zu schreiben sei."
And on page 336:
".... Monate von Ostpreußen in die Ukraine verlegt und erhielt dort den Namen "Wehrwolf" (mit "h" - s. S. 283).
Kind regards - Martin
Wien served in the "Abt L des OKW/WFSt" and thus inside the Führerhauptquartier. In his excellent book he states on page 283:
"Das "Führerhauptquartier" wurde nach Ostpreußen in die Nähe der Stadt Rastenburg verlegt und erhielt dort den Namen "Wolfsschanze". Dieses Wort hatte Hitler selbst erfunden (und sich vielleicht darunter auch etwas vorgestellt).
Er bevorzugte für seine Hauptquartiere Namen wie "Wolfsschlucht", "Wolfsschanze", "Wehrwolf". Manchmal bestimmte er sogar die Schreibweise: Der Begriff des Werwolfs (= Mannwolf) war ihm anscheinend nicht ganz klar oder er entsprach nicht seiner subjektiven Vorstellung von einem "wehrhaften Geiste"; daher gab er einen internen Befehl, daß der Name seines Hauptquartiers mit "h" zu schreiben sei."
And on page 336:
".... Monate von Ostpreußen in die Ukraine verlegt und erhielt dort den Namen "Wehrwolf" (mit "h" - s. S. 283).
Kind regards - Martin
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Re: Wehrwolf or Werwolf?
To revive this old question... a document issued by Pz.AOK 1 on 25. Feb 1944... at last they used "WEHRWOLF" ... WITH '-h-'...
Kind regards - Martin
Kind regards - Martin
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Re: Wehrwolf or Werwolf?
Perhaps the word "Wehrwolf" was consciously coined as a pun, since it means literally "defence wolf". A play on words.
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Re: Wehrwolf or Werwolf?
Prof. Biddiscombe also mentioned about the same thing in his book about Werwolf, NS Guerillas. It seems that the word Werwolf and Wehrwolfs were used interchangeablymichael mills wrote:Perhaps the word "Wehrwolf" was consciously coined as a pun, since it means literally "defence wolf". A play on words.