Were the V-weapons a bad idea?

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Kingfish
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Re: Were the V-weapons a bad idea?

#106

Post by Kingfish » 09 Oct 2013, 22:12

glenn239 wrote:Feel free to believe that pilot aiming would not improve accuracy, and that aircraft maneuvering would also not improve survivability. If you come to those conclusions, then a pilot isn't particuarily useful. OTOH, I think both are true, so a pilot would be useful.
I have no doubt that the Germans could make a piloted V-weapon that would feature vastly improved accuracy and survivability, but to do so would negate the benefits of the V1, that of simplicity and low-cost. The end result would no longer be a V1 or anything resembling it.

In a way its almost like arguing that the Waco gliders used by the US Airborne could be improved by adding two engines, fuel tanks and flight controls systems. No question it would improve drop efficiency, but then again we are no longer talking about a glider, are we?
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Re: Were the V-weapons a bad idea?

#107

Post by RichTO90 » 10 Oct 2013, 14:37

glenn239 wrote:What's your estimate of the max case (both scenarios), assuming the V-1 recieved top industrial priority and production reached maximum efficiency?
Oh, I see, so you were just assuming that the German would simply divert all sheet metal finishing capability to the V-1 effort (essentially eliminating production of all manned aircraft), rejigger their production planning, thus achieving "maximum efficiency" and "hey presto!" they get a six-fold increase over planned production...and at least ten-fold over actual production?

So why do I need to produce an "estimate" based on your fantasy? What two "scenarios" have you identified?


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Re: Were the V-weapons a bad idea?

#108

Post by LWD » 10 Oct 2013, 15:19

wm wrote: ... But because the mission required limited functionality from the transmitter, and the distance was short there are a few tricks that would render even the British jammers powerless.
Not really. There are some that might have helped but no where near 100% effective. The distance from the V-1 impact zones to the German recivers compared to the distance of the British jammers to the same is the critical factor. Some of the British jammers could and likely would have been closer than impact zones to the German recievers.
The V-1 could have transmited only during the last, let's say, 30 seconds before the dive. This, without prior knowledge of the frequency dialed into the transmitter couldn't be jammed.
That doesn't give the Germans a whole lot of time to triangulate the location. The British should be able to start jamming soon after the Germans start trying to triangulate as well. The British could also use broad band jamming.
All the bombs could have carried the transmitters but only few of them used for aiming, all of them couldn't be jammed because jamming requires much more resources that transmitting.
No. In some cases in requires less. If there are a bunch of V-1s transmitting at one time they are to some extent jamming themselves. Note that British ground stations would have much more power available than the V-1's as well.
And the VHF range could have been used. It's so vast, capable of carrying more than 50 thousand voice channels simultaneously, so the transmissions couldn't be located, and jammers dialed in the frequency in a reasonable amount of time.
Remember if you have multiple V-1s then the recieving stations also have to dial in the right frequencies and from what I recall radios of the period were not the most frequency stable.
But because the V-1 was a a resonant jet, it's engine was a quite accurate clock.
Really? Just putting in a little bit of extra or not quite as much as desired fuel would throw it off some. Fuel, air, and even V-1 temperatures would likely have some impact as well. Not to mention the impact of weather conditions.
they saw no reason for this, the engine was good in this role.
If your object was to hit England certainly it was good enough. If your object was to hit Greater London it was rather maraginal. If you wanted even more accuracy it simply wasn't up to it.
And a shorter flight means less time for external factors, like the English weather, to disturb accuracy, and that would be nice.
Not neccessarily. Encountering rain for instance at greater velocities might result in greater inaccuracy rather than lesser. Since air friction is a function of the power of the velocity grearter velocity could also mean that head winds cause a greater impact as well. I am inclined to suspect you may be correct here but it would take some very detailed analysis to confirm it and at least in some cases it could be wrong.

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Re: Were the V-weapons a bad idea?

#109

Post by glenn239 » 10 Oct 2013, 18:49

RichTO90 wrote:So why do I need to produce an "estimate" based on your fantasy? What two "scenarios" have you identified?
I don't recall asking you to base your estimate on anything I had said. Care to try again?
Oh, I see, so you were just assuming that the German would simply divert all sheet metal finishing capability to the V-1 effort (essentially eliminating production of all manned aircraft), rejigger their production planning, thus achieving "maximum efficiency" and "hey presto!" they get a six-fold increase over planned production...and at least ten-fold over actual production?
I don't recall discussing planned production. Might be best to mount the goal posts on a truck bed. You know, for better mobility.

Anyways, my assumption was cancellation of the V-2 program and all its labour going into V-1 production. I came up with a maximum of maybe 22,000 units per month labour from that source, based on comparative labour input - maybe an average of 8,000 hours for a V-2 vs 250 hours for a V-1, and assuming a peak V-2 production of about 700 units per month.
Last edited by glenn239 on 10 Oct 2013, 19:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Were the V-weapons a bad idea?

#110

Post by glenn239 » 10 Oct 2013, 18:55

LWD wrote: If your object was to hit England certainly it was good enough. If your object was to hit Greater London it was rather maraginal. If you wanted even more accuracy it simply wasn't up to it.
I tend to agree - no 'timer' system can substitute for accuracy. 8th Air Force didn't fly their bomber missions using autopilot on timer. A V-1 with automated guidance was an area attack weapon - ie, maybe a CEP of,

.http://mcfisher.0catch.com/scratch/v1/v1-0.htm

8 nautical miles.

A V-1 with no pilot hits Southern England reliably, maybe even London. A V-1 with a poorly trained pilot would have a CEP better than 8 miles. A V-1 with a well trained pilot willing to commit suicide could hit a specific building. If 1 in 100 V-1's had kamikaze pilots, everyone would assume all 100 did, (like how ever German tank was a Tiger tank).
Conclusion - the morale impact of the V-1 becomes much higher with improved accuracy. It seems like it might be an exponential function.

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Re: Were the V-weapons a bad idea?

#111

Post by RichTO90 » 10 Oct 2013, 19:16

glenn239 wrote:I don't recall asking you to base your estimate on anything I had said. Care to try again?
I see you're still as dodgy as ever. Okay, then why did you ask me what my "estimate of the max case (both scenarios), assuming the V-1 recieved top industrial priority and production reached maximum efficiency?" is?
I don't recall discussing planned production. Might be best to mount the goal posts on a truck bed. You know, for better mobility.
No, as usual you simply threw out some rather ill-considered assumptions, and have decided to start shifting the goalposts...while claiming now that you said something else then. Pot to kettle, black, I say again, black... :roll:
Anyways, my assumption was cancellation of the V-2 program and all its labour going into V-1 production. I came up with a maximum of maybe 22,000 units per month labour from that source, based on comparative labour input - maybe an average of 8,000 hours for a V-2 vs 250 hours for a V-1, and assuming a peak V-1 production of about 700 units per month.
Oh, now you deign to inform us of what your SWAG is based upon...hand waving. :roll: So I guess you get the same result if you cancel U-Boot production and have all its labor going into Tiger production? Why not go for broke and put all "comparative labour input" into a fission device? :roll:

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Re: Were the V-weapons a bad idea?

#112

Post by LWD » 10 Oct 2013, 19:22

glenn239 wrote: ... A V-1 with a poorly trained pilot would have a CEP better than 8 miles.
Or not. If he's taking evasive action then he can get lost. He will also burn up more fuel. Then there's the problem of navigating if there is cloud cover.
A V-1 with a well trained pilot willing to commit suicide could hit a specific building.
But how often would he? The frequency of Kamikazee hits in the Pacfic doesn't suggest that it would be all that high.
If 1 in 100 V-1's had kamikaze pilots, everyone would assume all 100 did, ...
Not necessarily. Consider also that the piloted V-1s are going to look quite a bit different or a lot of extra resouces will go into unmanned ones too little purpose. Then the British don't have to report that any are manned or they can report that some small fraction are manned.
Conclusion - the morale impact of the V-1 becomes much higher with improved accuracy. ...
You are drawing a conclusion with very little to support it.

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Re: Were the V-weapons a bad idea?

#113

Post by 83 Footer » 10 Oct 2013, 20:31

I have wondered what the Japanese would have done with V-1s. Most likely added a cockpit making it a long range Baka ,that would not need a Betty bomber mother ship. It would have been a very dangerous anti ship weapon.

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Re: Were the V-weapons a bad idea?

#114

Post by Kingfish » 10 Oct 2013, 20:50

glenn239 wrote: A V-1 with a well trained pilot willing to commit suicide could hit a specific building.
It took NATO decades in advanced weapons design in order to develop a cruise missile smart enough to fly thru a window, yet here the Germans are able to accomplish the same thing using 1940's technology, and instead of using RT satellite navigation and target recognition systems it instead will rely on one man's ability to pin point one tiny square among tens of thousands, while flying 3000 ft above an unfamiliar landscape at 400 mph.

Its no wonder they won the war
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Re: Were the V-weapons a bad idea?

#115

Post by LWD » 10 Oct 2013, 21:34

83 Footer wrote:I have wondered what the Japanese would have done with V-1s. Most likely added a cockpit making it a long range Baka ,that would not need a Betty bomber mother ship. It would have been a very dangerous anti ship weapon.
Or not.
Look at all the modification it would take to make this possible. Then consider the navigational difficulties in finding a moving target at sea. Then consider that the V-1 had a range of ~140nm. Just to hit Okinawa from the southern most main island would require doubling the range. Evasive maneuvering might help some vs radar directed AA guns but would also decrease p(H).

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Re: Were the V-weapons a bad idea?

#116

Post by RichTO90 » 10 Oct 2013, 23:47

LWD wrote: Or not.
Look at all the modification it would take to make this possible. Then consider the navigational difficulties in finding a moving target at sea. Then consider that the V-1 had a range of ~140nm. Just to hit Okinawa from the southern most main island would require doubling the range. Evasive maneuvering might help some vs radar directed AA guns but would also decrease p(H).
It's kind of amusing to note in the midst of all this bleating about "pilot-guided", "evading fighters", and "avoiding flak" nobody has mentioned the elephant in the room...as in "virtually no control surfaces". :lol: 8O Like no means of roll control. :roll: Like minimal horizontal stabilizer and vertical rudder control. :roll: Like no means of thrust control. :roll: Like the thing was designed to impact a 15 kilometer circle after flying essentially a straight line course at a preset speed with minimal altitude deviation for a maximum of 260 kilometers. :roll: Try to remember that a reasonable amount of buffet was sufficient to drive it irreparably out of control. :P

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Re: Were the V-weapons a bad idea?

#117

Post by Sheldrake » 11 Oct 2013, 00:09

RichTO90 wrote:
LWD wrote: Or not.
Look at all the modification it would take to make this possible. Then consider the navigational difficulties in finding a moving target at sea. Then consider that the V-1 had a range of ~140nm. Just to hit Okinawa from the southern most main island would require doubling the range. Evasive maneuvering might help some vs radar directed AA guns but would also decrease p(H).
It's kind of amusing to note in the midst of all this bleating about "pilot-guided", "evading fighters", and "avoiding flak" nobody has mentioned the elephant in the room...as in "virtually no control surfaces". :lol: 8O Like no means of roll control. :roll: Like minimal horizontal stabilizer and vertical rudder control. :roll: Like no means of thrust control. :roll: Like the thing was designed to impact a 15 kilometer circle after flying essentially a straight line course at a preset speed with minimal altitude deviation for a maximum of 260 kilometers. :roll: Try to remember that a reasonable amount of buffet was sufficient to drive it irreparably out of control. :P
Good points. The v1 was never designed for manoeuvre, or for human control. Nor were the Germans as willing to sacrifice their life to the Reich as the Japanese for the Emperor. Despite the "Ram Jet" recruitment, suicide bombers are alien to European culture, based on Christian concepts. There had to be at least a slim chance of survival, even if the chances of survival in , say the U Boat arm were statistically lower than as a kamikaze arm.

Nor were there targets in the European war which might justify the certain loss of life for their destruction. There were no economic panacea targets. Unlike the death star the or euivalent of the capital ships suicide ram jets was re was no equivalent of the CVs.

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Re: Were the V-weapons a bad idea?

#118

Post by phylo_roadking » 11 Oct 2013, 02:20

It's kind of amusing to note in the midst of all this bleating about "pilot-guided", "evading fighters", and "avoiding flak" nobody has mentioned the elephant in the room...as in "virtually no control surfaces".
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1823913 :wink:
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Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

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Re: Were the V-weapons a bad idea?

#119

Post by RichTO90 » 11 Oct 2013, 13:21

phylo_roadking wrote:
It's kind of amusing to note in the midst of all this bleating about "pilot-guided", "evading fighters", and "avoiding flak" nobody has mentioned the elephant in the room...as in "virtually no control surfaces".
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1823913 :wink:
Yes, phylo, but in your usual inimitable way you danced around the subject rather than addressing it directly. :lol:

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Re: Were the V-weapons a bad idea?

#120

Post by Takao » 11 Oct 2013, 13:52

83 Footer wrote:I have wondered what the Japanese would have done with V-1s. Most likely added a cockpit making it a long range Baka ,that would not need a Betty bomber mother ship. It would have been a very dangerous anti ship weapon.
Well, the Japanese were working on the Kawanishi Baika when the war ended, however it was still on the drawing boards. The Baika possessed a very small warhead of 250 kg, as opposed to the V-1's 850 kg warhead or the Ohka Model 11's 1,200 kg warhead(the Model 22 had a 600 kg warhead and the Model 33 an 800 kg one.). Further, the Kawanishi Baika retained a more "normal" aircraft appearance, as opposed to the Fi-103R's retaing it's "flying bomb" configuration.

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