Why were the Germans superior militarily

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#181

Post by Sid Guttridge » 30 Oct 2014, 17:06

......and size. Germany had twice the population (80 million) of its largest conquest, France (±40 million).

Germans was numerous. Only the ±120 million Russians formed a bigger national population group in Europe.

Sid.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 30 Oct 2014, 17:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Urmel
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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#182

Post by Urmel » 30 Oct 2014, 17:08

...and nice red uniforms?
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42


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Karelia
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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#183

Post by Karelia » 30 Oct 2014, 18:20

Sid Guttridge wrote:......and size. Germany had twice the population (80 million) of its largest conquest, France (±40 million).

Germans was numerous. Only the ±120 million Russians formed a bigger national population group in Europe.

Sid.
Yes, and the total population of the USSR in 1939 was abt 169 million (197 million in 1940) including all the nationalities, which had to fight for the soviets.

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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#184

Post by Sid Guttridge » 30 Oct 2014, 18:25

......yes, and the loyalty of those 50-70 million non-Russians in the USSR was often questionable.

Furthermore, if one includes the equivalent non-German minorities in the Reich at its most extensive, one would have to include around 30 million Czechs and Poles.

The loyalty of almost all the peoples lying between the 80 million Germans and 120 million Russians was more or less negotiable.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Karelia
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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#185

Post by Karelia » 30 Oct 2014, 19:57

Sid Guttridge wrote:......yes, and the loyalty of those 50-70 million non-Russians in the USSR was often questionable.

Furthermore, if one includes the equivalent non-German minorities in the Reich at its most extensive, one would have to include around 30 million Czechs and Poles.

The loyalty of almost all the peoples lying between the 80 million Germans and 120 million Russians was more or less negotiable.

Cheers,

Sid.
Sure, although their loyalty was often not asked, when they were marched to their deaths e.g. in Finland in the Winter War.

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Guaporense
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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#186

Post by Guaporense » 25 Jan 2015, 23:37

It's all tradition. Same reason why the US was economically superior: nearly two centuries of good institutions and solid economic policies made the US the world's largest economy by the time of WW2.

German/Prussian armed forces were the best in the world from mid 19th century, in WW1, to the end of WW2, though heavily outnumbered in both world wars mean't that even a substantial military superiority cannot overcome huge numerical inferiority (2 to 1 or more).
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

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Guaporense
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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#187

Post by Guaporense » 25 Jan 2015, 23:45

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi Michael,

Yup. The Germans lost about half their military casualties after June 1944. A pointless sacrifice in a demonstrably lost war by an otherwise highly civilized and educated population in the service of a barbaric regime. Hardly any gauleiters, who were responsible for sending the Volksturm off to their doom, died in action themselves. What a waste.

Sid.
Interestingly, even in early 1943 there wasn't support for the war among the civilian population, who did not desire it. Though they weren't brave/lucky enough to do a coup on their barbaric regime.
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

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Guaporense
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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#188

Post by Guaporense » 25 Jan 2015, 23:50

ChrisDR68 wrote:
Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi Chris DR68,

I would suggest that, as Germany was defeated on all those fronts and lost half of all its casualties in those last 10 months, this over extension is more a measure of its weakness than its military superiority. At the end of them the UK, US and USSR each ended up with over 3 million German prisoners in their hands and in possession of virtually every last German aircraft and U-boat.

Anyone can run multiple fronts and lose!

Cheers,

Sid.
I agree with everything you've stated but I think it's still impressive that Germany fought on all these enormous battlefronts for almost a full year before she was finally defeated.
In comparison to similar situations one would expect a much quicker defeat: the numerical superiority was such to easily allow massive encirclements of all German forces and their annihilation in a matter of a couple of months. Compare to German campaign against Poland, which was pretty much concluded in a couple of weeks and Poland's numerical odds in 39 were better than Germany's in 44-45.

The German victories were amazing, destroying massive armies of millions of soldiers in weeks/months. The Allied victories over the Germans were less amazing, involving huge casualties, vast numerical and logistical superiority, vast superiority in manpower and higher casualties than Germany (even in 1945, Allied losses in Europe were over 3 million soldiers, much higher than probably German casualties (which would be ca. 1.1 million if the intensity of casualties from the last 7 months of 1944 was maintained).
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#189

Post by ljadw » 26 Jan 2015, 10:00

This is a total wrong POV:the degree of amazeness of a victory has nothing to do with the number of casualties of the winner/loser ,besides the German losses in 1945 were much higher than 1.1 million (as other members have told you in the past):in the East alone,the German casualties were much higher than 1.1 million .

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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#190

Post by Alixanther » 26 Jan 2015, 16:55

ljadw wrote:This is a total wrong POV:the degree of amazeness of a victory has nothing to do with the number of casualties of the winner/loser ,besides the German losses in 1945 were much higher than 1.1 million (as other members have told you in the past):in the East alone,the German casualties were much higher than 1.1 million .
The problem is that usually all these numbers include KIA / MIA / WIA. While KIA / WIA sounds reasonable, there are lots of MIA added AFTER capitulation. You cannot reasonably add losses in 1945 and include MIA numbers. It's preposterous. And you also cannot make Allied forces to compile true numbers regarding MIA, because that was not their job before capitulation. Got it?

Michael Kenny
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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#191

Post by Michael Kenny » 26 Jan 2015, 17:04

I would like to agree on the German 'superiority'. No other nation came close in the 'losing wars' category. They deserve greater recognition for their silver medals in 1919 and 1945.

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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#192

Post by Erwinn » 27 Jan 2015, 09:52

Germans had some modern doctrines that helped them during early stages, but after they've failed to overcome obstacles and when the war looked like it will take longer than expected, their flaws started to appear. Especially in their other organizational areas they're using absolute doctrines which led them to the collapse.

If I may give an example, they still relied on Defensive Counter Attacks like in WW1. Later in the war this resulted in unnecessary casulties while enemy patiently waited for them. They thought trench warfare was still okay - which was not. They've needed a mobile defence doctrine but unlike some of their commander's suggestions, that never happen.

German military is quite working when Hitler is busy with other stuff.
Hitler intervenes - German military starts to show it's weak sides.

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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#193

Post by ljadw » 27 Jan 2015, 11:42

Alixanther wrote:
ljadw wrote:This is a total wrong POV:the degree of amazeness of a victory has nothing to do with the number of casualties of the winner/loser ,besides the German losses in 1945 were much higher than 1.1 million (as other members have told you in the past):in the East alone,the German casualties were much higher than 1.1 million .
The problem is that usually all these numbers include KIA / MIA / WIA. While KIA / WIA sounds reasonable, there are lots of MIA added AFTER capitulation. You cannot reasonably add losses in 1945 and include MIA numbers. It's preposterous. And you also cannot make Allied forces to compile true numbers regarding MIA, because that was not their job before capitulation. Got it?
The preliminary and incomplete losses for the army in 1945 were :

West :

january: 77000

february : 77000

march : 57000

april (1-20): 272000


Total : 483000


East :

january :93000

february : 124000

march :344000

april (1-20) 137000

Total : 698000


There were no more results after 20 april 1945

Thus,we have 1.183 million til 20 april for east and west only and for the army only .This means that what Guaporense was saying is wrong .

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stg 44
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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#194

Post by stg 44 » 27 Jan 2015, 19:18

Guaporense wrote:It's all tradition. Same reason why the US was economically superior: nearly two centuries of good institutions and solid economic policies made the US the world's largest economy by the time of WW2.

German/Prussian armed forces were the best in the world from mid 19th century, in WW1, to the end of WW2, though heavily outnumbered in both world wars mean't that even a substantial military superiority cannot overcome huge numerical inferiority (2 to 1 or more).
That and fact that the nearly an entire continent onto itself with most of the raw materials needed to run a modern economy domestically; it was the number 1 oil producer in the world and pretty much only lacked natural rubber. Everything else it had in abundance, while Germany just had enough coal.

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Guaporense
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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#195

Post by Guaporense » 28 Jan 2015, 04:16

Germany and Japan tried to fight a war without basic strategic raw materials. For instance, Germany should have accumulated large strategic stocks of the rare ores it needed and rubber.
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

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