Why were the Germans superior militarily

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
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Michael Kenny
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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#136

Post by Michael Kenny » 13 Aug 2014, 03:14

Von Schadewald wrote:Judging by this footage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeBD7aA ... watch-vrec
all shot in 1945, despite 6 years of continuous war, the Germans still had plenty of fighting spirit in them, lending many to say that the Germanic male actually enjoys combat even in retreat and defeat, a racial genetic inheritance from ancient times, from way before Teutoburg Wald, and will again in future wars yet to come as mentioned in the Bible.

Germans were surrendering in huge numbers in 1945. They were defeated in 1944 and nothing they did in 1945 made any sense at all. A pointless sacrifice of some 1 million plus of your own soldiers, countless civilaians and the total destruction of you major cities and country is not 'fighting spirit ' but insanity.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#137

Post by Sid Guttridge » 13 Aug 2014, 13:22

Hi Michael,

Yup. The Germans lost about half their military casualties after June 1944. A pointless sacrifice in a demonstrably lost war by an otherwise highly civilized and educated population in the service of a barbaric regime. Hardly any gauleiters, who were responsible for sending the Volksturm off to their doom, died in action themselves. What a waste.

Sid.


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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#138

Post by Sid Guttridge » 13 Aug 2014, 13:27

Hi von S.,

Who are the "many to say that the Germanic male actually enjoys combat even in retreat and defeat, a racial genetic inheritance from ancient times, from way before Teutoburg Wald, and will again in future wars yet to come as mentioned in the Bible."?

I didn't know the Germans were even mentioned in the Bible.

Military effectiveness is a cultural, not genetic, matter. In 1757 Frederick the Great routed a much larger French Army at Rossbach with very few casualties himself. Fifty years later the Prussians suffered the reverse humiliation at Auerstadt at the hands of the French. The genetic inheritance of the Prussians and French hadn't changed, but their military cultures had.

Sid.

Von Schadewald
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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#139

Post by Von Schadewald » 13 Aug 2014, 23:18

Sid Guttridge wrote: I didn't know the Germans were even mentioned in the Bible.

The decendants of Japheth, Gomer and Ashkenaz, are mentioned 3000 years ago in the Bible in Genesis 10
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gomer and are identified in the Talmud and other sources with "Germania".

Gomer is depicted as being an ally of Gog and Magog in the End Time invasion of Israel, Ezekiel 36.

2000 years ago the Talmud warned "If Germania should ever sally out of its land it will destroy the entire world" (Megilla 6).

British astronomer Patrick Moore warned "The Germans started WW1. The Germans started WW2. Believe me: the Germans are going to start WW3!"

Germany also contains Biblical Canaanite, Edomite and nasty Amalekitish admixtures http://www.britam.org/Edom/EsauGermany.html

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LWD
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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#140

Post by LWD » 14 Aug 2014, 00:28

Von Schadewald wrote:
Sid Guttridge wrote: I didn't know the Germans were even mentioned in the Bible.
The decendants of Japheth, Gomer and Ashkenaz, are mentioned 3000 years ago in the Bible in Genesis 10
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gomer and are identified in the Talmud and other sources with "Germania".

Gomer is depicted as being an ally of Gog and Magog in the End Time invasion of Israel, Ezekiel 36.
Sort of ex post facto reasoning though isn't it?
2000 years ago the Talmud warned "If Germania should ever sally out of its land it will destroy the entire world" (Megilla 6).
Wasn't that about the time of the expansion of the German tribes into what is now Germany? It was followed by German expansion into Spain, Italy, North Africa, etc about 1,500 to 900 or so years ago. Raher brings the reliability of the source to question does it not.
British astronomer Patrick Moore warned "The Germans started WW1. The Germans started WW2. Believe me: the Germans are going to start WW3!"
...
Of course arguably they didn't start either WW1 or WW2. There's a substantial thread on the WWI aspect currently ongoing on this board and the first two major combatants in WWII had been fighting for a couple of years when Germany invaded Poland.

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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#141

Post by Von Schadewald » 14 Aug 2014, 13:10

"What is meant by the verse 'Grant not, O Lord, the desires of the wicked, draw not out his bit (Psalm 140) so that they exalt themselves, selah'? Jacob said before the Holy One, blessed be He: Sovereign of the Universe, grant not to Esau the wicked the desire of his heart, draw not out his bit: this refers to Germania of Edom, for should they but go forth they would destroy the whole world.

R. Hama b. Hanina said: There are three hundred crowned heads in Germania of Edom and three hundred and sixty-five chieftains in Rome, and every day one set go forth to meet the other and one of them is killed, and they have all the trouble of appointing a king again."
(Talmud Megilla 6, c 400 AD)

"By the end of the Middle Ages which had seen Britain and France emerge as unified nations, Germany remained a crazy patchwork of some 300 individual states. It was this lack of national development which largely detremined the course of German history from the end of the Middle ages to midway in the 19th c and made it so different from any of the other of the great nations of Europe" ('Rise & fall of the 3rd Reich', WL Shirer)

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LWD
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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#142

Post by LWD » 14 Aug 2014, 13:38

Snf yhsy'd trlrbsny how? Where did the first paragraph come from by the way? If the second dates from 400 AD then it is obviously a translation, what exact words did the original use? I don't see that the case is very well supported.

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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#143

Post by ChrisDR68 » 14 Aug 2014, 16:00

"By the end of the Middle Ages which had seen Britain and France emerge as unified nations, Germany remained a crazy patchwork of some 300 individual states. It was this lack of national development which largely detremined the course of German history from the end of the Middle ages to midway in the 19th c and made it so different from any of the other of the great nations of Europe" ('Rise & fall of the 3rd Reich', WL Shirer)
You could argue Italy had much the same patchwork history up until the 1870's but they didn't have anything like the same martial tradition that the German (mainly Prussian) peoples had (despite being the descendants of the Romans).

It could be argued that Germany was simply unlucky with it's leaders.

Kaiser Bill was definitely mentally unstable, incredibly insecure and quite possibly certifiably mad.

Ol' Adolf was probably a neurotic psychopath but a clever, cunning and manipulative one at that.

The Germans being a naturally conformist and rules orientated people simply followed their leader both in August 1914 and in September 1939.

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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#144

Post by Von Schadewald » 14 Aug 2014, 17:17

LWD wrote: Where did the first paragraph come from by the way? If the second dates from 400 AD then it is obviously a translation, what exact words did the original use? I don't see that the case is very well supported.

http://halakhah.com/pdf/moed/Megilah.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVHsksNRO7w

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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#145

Post by ljadw » 14 Aug 2014, 17:45

Von Schadewald wrote:"What is meant by the verse 'Grant not, O Lord, the desires of the wicked, draw not out his bit (Psalm 140) so that they exalt themselves, selah'? Jacob said before the Holy One, blessed be He: Sovereign of the Universe, grant not to Esau the wicked the desire of his heart, draw not out his bit: this refers to Germania of Edom, for should they but go forth they would destroy the whole world.

R. Hama b. Hanina said: There are three hundred crowned heads in Germania of Edom and three hundred and sixty-five chieftains in Rome, and every day one set go forth to meet the other and one of them is killed, and they have all the trouble of appointing a king again."
(Talmud Megilla 6, c 400 AD)

"By the end of the Middle Ages which had seen Britain and France emerge as unified nations, Germany remained a crazy patchwork of some 300 individual states. It was this lack of national development which largely detremined the course of German history from the end of the Middle ages to midway in the 19th c and made it so different from any of the other of the great nations of Europe" ('Rise & fall of the 3rd Reich', WL Shirer)
Shirer's reliability (if he had one) was buried already before the funeral of Shirer,and,besides,Shirer is wrong .

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LWD
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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#146

Post by LWD » 14 Aug 2014, 18:40

Von Schadewald wrote:
LWD wrote: Where did the first paragraph come from by the way? If the second dates from 400 AD then it is obviously a translation, what exact words did the original use? I don't see that the case is very well supported.
http://halakhah.com/pdf/moed/Megilah.pdf
All I get from that is that it is someones interpretation of something. Hardly convincing. Not even clear who they are talking about or when the translations/interpretations were made.
youtube makes wiki look like an outstanding source. I simply don't bother to look at uncommented youtube videos, indeed I don't bother with many commented ones.

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Webdragon2013
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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#147

Post by Webdragon2013 » 19 Aug 2014, 13:09

Hello.

In numerous documentaries and testimonies, I have heard mention from the Russian civilians that the German soldiers they saw "looked more like athletes than soldiers".

Physical fitness seemed to be on par in the German Army with modern Armies, whilst other militaries only engaged in rudimentary military fitness exercises.

I have 2 questions:
- Is there a Wehrmacht or SS manual for physical fitness and if yes what is it called?
- Did PT fitness differ between Wehrmacht, Waffen SS, paratroops & elite troops, etc?
Obviously much of Wehrmacht in late stage of war and regular wehrmacht troops were not top level physically, but the original Wehrmacht was very much in top shape.

I truly believe a higher standard of physical fitness gave the Wehrmacht an edge (if only minimal).
Is there some more information on this?

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LWD
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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#148

Post by LWD » 19 Aug 2014, 13:52

There have been a couple of threads here on the physical fitness training in the German army.

joe cleere
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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#149

Post by joe cleere » 20 Aug 2014, 04:46

This question is a rather complicated one to answer. I believe that the German were superior militarily for the following reasons:

1. Von Seeckt's reforms based on a close study of World War I. The main reform was the centrality of excellent leadership and sound doctrine.
2. Tough, realistic training.
3. Develoment of combined arms integrating armor, motorized infantry, artillery, and aircraft.
4. All of the above was used to increase the tempo of operations. Officers were trained to make quick decisions and exploit opportunities, enabling them to operate within the decision-making cycle of their opponents. German soldiers were given tough training to ebable them to perform at this faster tempo. Mechanization was also a factor in increasing the tempo of operations.
5. In their training, the Germans paid special attention to unit cohesion and morale, which made their formations more robust than those of their opponents.

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Re: Why were the Germans superior militarily

#150

Post by Graeme Sydney » 20 Aug 2014, 05:32

joe cleere wrote:This question is a rather complicated one to answer. I believe that the German were superior militarily for the following reasons:

1. Von Seeckt's reforms based on a close study of World War I. The main reform was the centrality of excellent leadership and sound doctrine.
2. Tough, realistic training.
3. Develoment of combined arms integrating armor, motorized infantry, artillery, and aircraft.
4. All of the above was used to increase the tempo of operations. Officers were trained to make quick decisions and exploit opportunities, enabling them to operate within the decision-making cycle of their opponents. German soldiers were given tough training to ebable them to perform at this faster tempo. Mechanization was also a factor in increasing the tempo of operations.
5. In their training, the Germans paid special attention to unit cohesion and morale, which made their formations more robust than those of their opponents.
That's a very starry eyed assessment that can only be applied to a limited part of the Germany Army at any period between 1932 and 1945.

There was no significant innate 'superiority' in the Germany Army between 1932 and 1945 or between 1939 and 1945. Germany's early military success came from 'stealing a march' (rearming first) and by strategic military gambling.

The only way an argument for superiority can be made is at a particular time, a particular period or a particular unit or type of unit. But then you can make the same type of argument for other combatants. Overall there was no significant innate military superiority between any of them.

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