Did the SS and Einsatzgruppen ruin "Operation Barbarossa"?
Did the SS and Einsatzgruppen ruin "Operation Barbarossa"?
I believe this theory may have some truth to it
The Germans where instructed to be on their best behaviour towards French, British and other citizens in the land they occupied in the west. However this was not at all the case on the eastern front as we all know. However Stalin was a hated dictator and the Germans where first seen as liberators to begin with then the Germans intentions became clear once the SS and Einsatzgruppen swept across the eastern front.
Now had the Germans used the same protocol with treatment of French and British citizens on the eastern front and used a façade of liberation propaganda would it have just been a case of kicking the door in and the USSR collapses?
Please share your thoughts
The Germans where instructed to be on their best behaviour towards French, British and other citizens in the land they occupied in the west. However this was not at all the case on the eastern front as we all know. However Stalin was a hated dictator and the Germans where first seen as liberators to begin with then the Germans intentions became clear once the SS and Einsatzgruppen swept across the eastern front.
Now had the Germans used the same protocol with treatment of French and British citizens on the eastern front and used a façade of liberation propaganda would it have just been a case of kicking the door in and the USSR collapses?
Please share your thoughts
Re: Did the SS and einsatzgruppen ruin operation barbarossa?
The Nazis didn't have the resources required to be nice to the millions of the Soviet people, only the enslavement and extermination were economically useful.
And Stalin wasn't hated or at least widely, Stalin haters wouldn't deliver Moscow '41, Stalingrad '42.
And Stalin wasn't hated or at least widely, Stalin haters wouldn't deliver Moscow '41, Stalingrad '42.
Re: Did the SS and einsatzgruppen ruin operation barbarossa?
Not that much in the short run (6-8 weeks) in which it failed.
The only impediment about Waffen-SS that I find obvious is the one encountered in WWI with stosstruppen, leeching motivated soldiers to elite units reduces the efectiveness of the other units. A balance has to be found between elite units used for specialized tasks and regular units. IMO, Wehrmacht went too far on the elite unit side, given the tenuous Nazi hold on the german people.
There is method to the Einsatzgruppen madness, although obviously to pull these types of stunts, one has to make sure the war is won, first...
PS "djugashvilli-hatorz". Maybe they cannot deliver Stalingrad - but maybe Leningrad in 42?
The only impediment about Waffen-SS that I find obvious is the one encountered in WWI with stosstruppen, leeching motivated soldiers to elite units reduces the efectiveness of the other units. A balance has to be found between elite units used for specialized tasks and regular units. IMO, Wehrmacht went too far on the elite unit side, given the tenuous Nazi hold on the german people.
There is method to the Einsatzgruppen madness, although obviously to pull these types of stunts, one has to make sure the war is won, first...
PS "djugashvilli-hatorz". Maybe they cannot deliver Stalingrad - but maybe Leningrad in 42?
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion
Re: Did the SS and einsatzgruppen ruin operation barbarossa?
You seem to misunderstand my point of view, I have seen recorded interviews of Russians civilians saying that at first they didn't have a problem with the idea of German rule I can quote one person saying "I thought to myself what could be wrong a German culture" then he goes on to say after the einsatzgruppen and SS made their presence felt he and everyone else chanced their mind.
Yes of course Stalin haters would not have delivered Moscow 41 and Stalingrad 42 but that was after the German intentions where clear that they would be far worse off under Hitler than Stalin. Had the Germans not made their intentions known by not letting the SS and einsatzgruppen to sweep across the western USSR then maybe psychologically the Russian people would not have resisted so hard?
Yes of course Stalin haters would not have delivered Moscow 41 and Stalingrad 42 but that was after the German intentions where clear that they would be far worse off under Hitler than Stalin. Had the Germans not made their intentions known by not letting the SS and einsatzgruppen to sweep across the western USSR then maybe psychologically the Russian people would not have resisted so hard?
Re: Did the SS and einsatzgruppen ruin operation barbarossa?
In that case, I would say it wasn't the same people that said that and that fought at Moscow. People already conquered by the Germans were out of the game, their opinions were immaterial.
The people on the Soviet side didn't have any knowledge about the German intentions. The Soviet propaganda was not going to tell them anything about it. For them the Germans were evil incarnate from the day one.
And really, most of the Russians civilians never saw any einsatzgruppen soldier. The brutality was primary from their civilian overseers, local administration, local police. If I'm not mistaken it took at least a year for the Germans to make them really angry.
The people on the Soviet side didn't have any knowledge about the German intentions. The Soviet propaganda was not going to tell them anything about it. For them the Germans were evil incarnate from the day one.
And really, most of the Russians civilians never saw any einsatzgruppen soldier. The brutality was primary from their civilian overseers, local administration, local police. If I'm not mistaken it took at least a year for the Germans to make them really angry.
-
- Member
- Posts: 2387
- Joined: 15 Apr 2002, 21:29
- Location: MA, USA
Re: Did the SS and einsatzgruppen ruin operation barbarossa?
This seems like an inane "If the Third Reich wasn't Nazi, then WWII would have turned out differently" thread.
I didn't realize that WWII Germany occupied the UK, given your reference to British citizens.
Given those intentions, why would the Nazis treat the subjugated USSR populations well?
Please provide an example of this "best behavior" instruction.The Germans where instructed to be on their best behaviour towards French, British and other citizens in the land they occupied in the west.
I didn't realize that WWII Germany occupied the UK, given your reference to British citizens.
I think this theory that "the Germans were perceived as liberators by all Soviet citizens is getting way overblown.However Stalin was a hated dictator and the Germans where first seen as liberators to begin with then the Germans intentions became clear once the SS and einsatzgruppen swept across the eastern front.
Hitler planned a war of extermination against "Judeo-Bolshevist" threat, which specifically included plans for the genocide and murder of 30+ million Jews and Slavs, plus the recolonization of the area by German settlers.Now had the Germans used the same protocol with treatment of French and British citizens on the eastern front and used a façade of liberation propaganda would it have just been a case of kicking the door in and the USSR collapses?
Given those intentions, why would the Nazis treat the subjugated USSR populations well?
-
- Forum Staff
- Posts: 23722
- Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
- Location: USA
Re: Did the SS and Einsatzgruppen ruin "Operation Barbarossa
David1819 -- You might find this thread of interest it gives a collaborators' eye-view of the problems:
How the Nazi occupation failed in Galicia/ Ukraine
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 283#431283
How the Nazi occupation failed in Galicia/ Ukraine
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 283#431283
Re: Did the SS and einsatzgruppen ruin operation barbarossa?
This I quote from the site linked belowRob - wssob2 wrote:Please provide an example of this "best behavior" instruction.
the German troops were under strict orders to behave with decorum. As a result initially they treated the islanders with respect and tried to demonstrate that the islanders and their new masters could get along.
Store staff and customers were surprised that the German soldiers said "Good morning", joined on the back of the queue, waited their turn and paid for their purchases with shillings and pennies.
http://www.woolworthsmuseum.co.uk/1940s ... slands.htm
Yes I agree. But it would not have been difficult to manipulate the Russians into thinking they would be better off without Stalin's regimeRob - wssob2 wrote: I think this theory that "the Germans were perceived as liberators by all Soviet citizens is getting way overblown.
Like I said Hitler planned a war of extermination yes, but made his intentions clear from start of the eastern front. Its not a good idea to begin exterminating and plundering a nation while that nation is undefeated and its military is still intact it will only make resistance more stiff and motivate the enemy to recruit and fight harder. By acting as liberators or at leased leaving them alone while focusing primarily on the destruction of the Red Army then stab the USSR populations in the back once the USSR has no structure or resistance. Do you understand where I am coming from on this? it's a viable military strategyRob - wssob2 wrote: Hitler planned a war of extermination against "Judeo-Bolshevist" threat, which specifically included plans for the genocide and murder of 30+ million Jews and Slavs, plus the recolonization of the area by German settlers.
Given those intentions, why would the Nazis treat the subjugated USSR populations well?
-
- Member
- Posts: 10158
- Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19
Re: Did the SS and Einsatzgruppen ruin "Operation Barbarossa
Hi David 1819,
I think there is something in the proposition.
However, there is one massive obstacle - Nazi ideology regarding "inferior peoples" and lebensraum would have to have been fundamentally different, as it was the lands of the western Soviet minorities that they primarily wanted to repopulate with Germans.
It would have to be a different, non-Nazi, Germany that attacked the USSR to exploit your possibility, but a non-Nazi Germany was unlikely to have had the same motivation to do so.
Catch 22?
Cheers,
Sid.
I think there is something in the proposition.
However, there is one massive obstacle - Nazi ideology regarding "inferior peoples" and lebensraum would have to have been fundamentally different, as it was the lands of the western Soviet minorities that they primarily wanted to repopulate with Germans.
It would have to be a different, non-Nazi, Germany that attacked the USSR to exploit your possibility, but a non-Nazi Germany was unlikely to have had the same motivation to do so.
Catch 22?
Cheers,
Sid.
Re: Did the SS and einsatzgruppen ruin operation barbarossa?
But it was like that, they arrived as liberators, and generally left the population alone in the first year of the war.David1819 wrote: Like I said Hitler planned a war of extermination yes, but made his intentions clear from start of the eastern front. Its not a good idea to begin exterminating and plundering a nation while that nation is undefeated and its military is still intact it will only make resistance more stiff and motivate the enemy to recruit and fight harder. By acting as liberators or at leased leaving them alone while focusing primarily on the destruction of the Red Army then stab the USSR populations in the back once the USSR has no structure or resistance. Do you understand where I am coming from on this? it's a viable military strategy
The Germans tightened the reins after Moscow/Stalingrad, and we know now the war was lost at that point of time.
It wasn't their brutality caused the defeat, the defeat brought the brutality.
It had to be done to extract the utmost from the population, the Germans really didn't have any other choice then.
Last edited by wm on 27 Jun 2014, 14:24, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Did the SS and Einsatzgruppen ruin "Operation Barbarossa
: this is not correct: while it is correct that Stalin was a dictator, it is not proved that he was hated .Hitler also was a dictator,but for a long time,he was popular .There is no indication that in june 1941 the population of the USSR was yearning for being liberated from the communist dictatorship .David1819 wrote: However Stalin was a hated dictator
Re: Did the SS and Einsatzgruppen ruin "Operation Barbarossa
ljadw wrote:There is no indication that in june 1941 the population of the USSR was yearning for being liberated from the communist dictatorship .
No one? Nobody? Not even one person?
Sure thing.
No one raised even a peep.
Why, everyone loved Stalin's bolshevik paradise.
Alas, NKVD disagrees.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion
Re: Did the SS and Einsatzgruppen ruin "Operation Barbarossa
These are from the recently annexed territories, though. I think we all know that these were different, no?
Re: Did the SS and Einsatzgruppen ruin "Operation Barbarossa
Not if we believe what we are told by our trustworthy governement.DarthMaur wrote:These are from the recently annexed territories, though. I think we all know that these were different, no?
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion
Re: Did the SS and Einsatzgruppen ruin "Operation Barbarossa
Err, what is your point? What does this 1943 movie have to do with our knowledge about whether citizens of USSR viewed advancing Axis troops as liberation?