Did the SS and Einsatzgruppen ruin "Operation Barbarossa"?

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BDV
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Re: Did the SS and Einsatzgruppen ruin "Operation Barbarossa

#16

Post by BDV » 05 Aug 2014, 23:59

Because the re-establishment independent states in the Baltic area, and the establishment of a pro-Nazi but separate/self-standing anti-Bolshevik Ukrainean state would create huge problems to WAlly propaganda, in addition to those military created to the Bolsheviks proper.
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Re: Did the SS and Einsatzgruppen ruin "Operation Barbarossa

#17

Post by Sid Guttridge » 06 Aug 2014, 12:54

Hi BDV,

These moves would require the Nazis to change their fundamental political philosophy and central war aim of seizing lebensraum in the East on the territories of exactly these states.

The Nazis were not prepared to make such a fundamental change to their political goals until the Reich was under invasion in 1945, by which time they had already lost almost all the Baltic states and the entire Ukraine.

Sid


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BDV
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Re: Did the SS and Einsatzgruppen ruin "Operation Barbarossa

#18

Post by BDV » 06 Aug 2014, 15:04

Sid Guttridge wrote:These moves would require the Nazis to change their fundamental political philosophy and central war aim of seizing lebensraum in the East on the territories of exactly these states.

The Nazis were not prepared to make such a fundamental change to their political goals until the Reich was under invasion in 1945, by which time they had already lost almost all the Baltic states and the entire Ukraine.
Agreed, although it's not from lack of trying from more competent components of the Nazi german state (1 and 2).

That the Abwehr's efforts in Ukraine were kneecapped in AUGUST when Barbarossa had been thwarted for all intents and purposes is just more proof of the criminal incompetence of the Nazi regime in strategic and political matters.

P.S.
To put it another way, SS and Einsatzgruppen DID NOT ruin "Operation Barbarossa" as such, but the mentality and goals behind their functions surely contribute to the Axis debacle in Bolshevik Russia.
Last edited by BDV on 06 Aug 2014, 17:23, edited 1 time in total.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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Re: Did the SS and Einsatzgruppen ruin "Operation Barbarossa

#19

Post by ljadw » 06 Aug 2014, 17:09

That is not correct : unless there are indications/proofs that the Abwehr operations (batallion Nachtigal) could have changed the outcome of Barbarossa, you can not claim that the orders from Berlin (to prevent the formation of an Ukrainian government)were of a criminal incompetence .
There are no such proofs : except in a few cases, there were no mass surrenders by the Soviet Army .While the Abwehr was operating, the Soviets fought fanatically . And when the Abwehr operations were stopped, the Red Army continued to fight fanatically . You are also forgetting that,while in the regions annexed between 1939/1941,there were groups that wanted independence, eastwards such groups did not exist (excepted in the Caucasus) :already before WWII,the eastern parts of the Ukraine were heavily russified .

The problem is that you are convinced that because the Soviet regime was a dictatorship,this meant that the population wanted to be liberated . This is not so :mostly people do not care if they are living in a democracy or in a dictatorship,as long there is a material progress .The living conditions in the SU were better in 1940 than in 1914,and this explains the support of the population for the regime . It was the same in Germany .For better living conditions the majority of people (in all countries) is willing to sacrifice a part of its freedom (or all freedom) .

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Re: Did the SS and Einsatzgruppen ruin "Operation Barbarossa

#20

Post by BDV » 06 Aug 2014, 18:04

I agree, SS and Einsatzgruppen DID NOT ruin "Operation Barbarossa" as such. It was to be a quickie "smash-and-grab", and its success was independent of details like Einsatzgruppen. However, the Nazi mentality and Nazi goals behind Einsatzgruppen functions (IMO) contributed handily to the Axis debacle in Bolshevik Russia.

When the Barbarossa smash-and-grab did not work, the Axis could not come up with anything else (much less have it already prepared). On the contrary, the Nazi leadership actively sabotaged the measures to evolve the war effort into a sustained (and sustainable) offensive, just as Barbarossa was falling to pieces (late July and August 1941). Instead, Nazis reacted with "smash-and-grab 2" (Unternehmen Taifun), and "smash-and-grab 3" (Fall Blau).

Criminally incompetent is the only applicable description to this lunacy.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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Re: Did the SS and Einsatzgruppen ruin "Operation Barbarossa

#21

Post by wenty » 07 Aug 2014, 11:21

Just to throw in my two cents worth, I don't believe they ruined that particular operation, but as the efforts were ramped up to deport Jews and especially in 1944, I think a lot of resources which could have been better used for the German military cause that were instead used by the likes of the SS really cost Germany in the long run. Not to mention that such atrocities were always going to be avenged when the Soviets reclaimed their territory.

Cheers,
Adam.

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Re: Did the SS and Einsatzgruppen ruin "Operation Barbarossa

#22

Post by David1819 » 21 Aug 2014, 16:16

You also need to consider if the actions of the SS and Einsatzgruppen contributed to the support and recruitment of soviet partisan groups behind the front line that constantly attacked and disrupted the German supply lines to the front line? That could have played a major role in the failure of Barbarossa

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Re: Did the SS and Einsatzgruppen ruin "Operation Barbarossa

#23

Post by Steve » 28 Aug 2014, 00:36

German behaviour towards the conquered population in the east and the west is like comparing chalk and cheese. If Hitler had treated the Soviet Union like France the war in the east may well have taken a different course. However, if he had been capable of forgetting about his half baked ideology he would probably not have attacked the USSR in the first place.

Approximately one million Soviet citizens served in the German armed forces in some capacity. Vlasov very likely could have organised a Russian army to fight against Stalin and communism if he had been given the chance and had something to offer the Russian people. When visiting the occupied territories as late as 1943 he was warmly greeted and drew large crowds. In the Ukraine especially there was strong anti communist feeling not least because of the terrible famine in the 1930s. The civil war between Whites and Reds had only finished about twenty one years before the German invasion.

Stalin understood very well that his regime was not universally popular. There was more to Soviet partisan activity in the occupied territories then blowing up trains. The partisans maintained Soviet authority among the occupied population and prevented them from collaborating. If the Germans had not behaved like a Mongol army from the middle ages they probably would have had millions of volunteers prepared to fight the Reds.

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Re: Did the SS and Einsatzgruppen ruin "Operation Barbarossa

#24

Post by David1819 » 28 Aug 2014, 01:04

Steve wrote:if he had been capable of forgetting about his half baked ideology he would probably not have attacked the USSR in the first place.
Many have pointed this out to me, However could they have not planned to launch the Einszatzgruppen and SS to kill the "undesirables" after Moscow is taken and the Wehrmacht reaches the AA line? Using a Façade of liberation as a deception tactic thus making destruction of the USSR more easier. The ethnic cleansing of the territory could have been initiated afterwards when resistance is minimal. I do not see why this contradicts Hitler's ideology.

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Re: Did the SS and Einsatzgruppen ruin "Operation Barbarossa

#25

Post by BDV » 28 Aug 2014, 20:46

David1819 wrote:The ethnic cleansing of the territory could have been initiated afterwards when resistance is minimal. I do not see why this contradicts Hitler's ideology.

Yes, but if the cleansing is done by the polizei and SS/SD, how is the Wehrmacht going to get its paws on its fair share of loot? Or you propose that Wehrmacht does the bleeding and NSDAP does the profiteering?!?
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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Re: Did the SS and Einsatzgruppen ruin "Operation Barbarossa

#26

Post by wm » 28 Aug 2014, 21:02

The Einszatzgruppen supported, and were part of the invasion, as the Soviets were known for behind the lines resistance, and for raising huge and efficient partisan units out of thin air.
The banners were filled
By the red of the last wounds
Went the intrepid squadrons
Of the Amur partisans.

The fame of those days will never cease
Will never dim
The partisan troops
Captured cities.

And will remain as legends
Like sparkling fires
The storming nights of Spassk
The days of Volochaevka.

We defeated the atamans
Dispersed the Voivodes
And on the Pacific Ocean
Had ended our campaign.
That sounds like something from the times of the WW2, but in reality happened 20 years earlier.

So an action aimed at decapitating possible resistance was reasonable. Maybe it was unnecessary, but the fear wasn't without reason.

As to the façade of liberation - the Soviet ideology was vastly superior over the Nazi ideology, as shown by the broad support all around the world before and during the WW2, and even after - see France, Italy.
It was highly adaptable, it was not going to lose against the primitive tribal ideology of the Nazis.
And the Russians didn't defend Moscow because of the Einszatzgruppen, but because it was their capital.

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Re: Did the SS and Einsatzgruppen ruin "Operation Barbarossa

#27

Post by Steve » 29 Aug 2014, 00:50

Barbarossa was predicated on a campaign lasting approximately three months so there was no necessity to treat the civilian population decently. The initial role of the Einsatzgruppenn was to murder communist functionaries and activists, Jews, Gypsies, saboteurs and agents. It is unlikely that this was a factor in stiffening Russian resistance at the end of 41 unless of course you were a communist a Jew or a Gypsy and knew what was happening.

Partisans in 1941 were not a serious problem for the German army and never caused a serious problem until June 1944 with the Soviet offensive against Army Group Centre. Soviet partisan activity in the Ukraine was on a smaller scale than elsewhere and often directed against Ukrainian nationalists.

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Re: Did the SS and Einsatzgruppen ruin "Operation Barbarossa

#28

Post by David1819 » 29 Aug 2014, 17:16

I may have asked the initial question in wrong manner.

But I think we can universally agree that the harsh treatment of the soviet people and the callous conduct of the occupying force had a huge contribution to the failure of Barbarossa and following operations.

In my opinion I do not think Hitler and the Wehrmacht high command were wrong in believing that it was just a matter of "kicking the door down and whole rotten structure of the USSR would collapse" Had the Germans used the same code of conduct in the western front at least until all major objectives where completed.

Many seem to just look at the military numbers and logistics that led to the failure of Barbarossa but I feel my question raises a valid point

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Re: Did the SS and Einsatzgruppen ruin "Operation Barbarossa

#29

Post by BDV » 29 Aug 2014, 19:34

David1819 wrote:But I think we can universally agree that the harsh treatment of the soviet people and the callous conduct of the occupying force had a huge contribution to the failure of Barbarossa and following operations.
Barbarossa? No. (The mediocrily executed, very poorly prepared, poorly planned) Barbarossa was stopped by RKKA through force of arms.

Quite the opposite. The "poor" behavior of Barbarossa produced another incentive for the germans and their auxiliaries to fight - loot, the oldest motivator of men.

1942 and later?! Much more debatable. German desperation actions of 1944, and related things like Forrest Brothers and UPA (and even AK) demonstrate the untapped possibilities of 1941. But these have a 12-18 months lag-time. That is, they'd come to play in 1942 late summer- at the earliest. Adolf had planned on (and was promised by his henchmen) OstEndsieg in 1941.

Many seem to just look at the military numbers and logistics that led to the failure of Barbarossa but I feel my question raises a valid point
The question is valid, but the answer is in the negative.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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Re: Did the SS and Einsatzgruppen ruin "Operation Barbarossa

#30

Post by ljadw » 29 Aug 2014, 20:20

Steve wrote:Barbarossa was predicated on a campaign lasting approximately three months so there was no necessity to treat the civilian population decently. The initial role of the Einsatzgruppenn was to murder communist functionaries and activists, Jews, Gypsies, saboteurs and agents. It is unlikely that this was a factor in stiffening Russian resistance at the end of 41 unless of course you were a communist a Jew or a Gypsy and knew what was happening.

Partisans in 1941 were not a serious problem for the German army and never caused a serious problem until June 1944 with the Soviet offensive against Army Group Centre. Soviet partisan activity in the Ukraine was on a smaller scale than elsewhere and often directed against Ukrainian nationalists.
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