Reasons germany lost the war

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Kovymoga
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Reasons germany lost the war

#1

Post by Kovymoga » 30 Jul 2014, 14:41

1. Italy

-Failed to invade greece which was underpowered compared to the italian army so hitler had ton intervene and delay Barbarossa by a couple of weeks
-If barbarossa was launched earlier maybe (big maybe) the germans could captured moscow before winter which would have been a massive blow to the soviets
-failed in north africa meaning more german troops had to be diverted away from the eastern front
-surrendered when the allies landed in italy basically contributing nothing to the german war effort

Japan

-had no intention of attacking russia, Stalin finds out and moves troops from siberia to the eastern front
-brilliant idea to bomb pearl harbor bringing the states in the war
-USA lends leases to the soviets raising their capacity to wage war against the germans and so on

Basically Hitler's two main ''allies'' are the biggest reasons he was defeated.
His most important ally was romania : most troops supplied to the eastern front + massive amounts of oil supplied to the german war machine.

Why is the italian campaign overlooked, Germany was fighting on 2 fronts from 1943 well before normandy..

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BDV
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#2

Post by BDV » 30 Jul 2014, 19:49

Those are details, some quite trivial in the wider context.

The (tautological) reason why Germans lost the war is that the Axis enemies built a stronger force than the Axis could defeat (1 - UK and SU), and kept on building until a force strong enough to defeat the Axis was gathered (SU, UK and US).
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion


steverodgers801
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#3

Post by steverodgers801 » 31 Jul 2014, 01:55

Kovy, the spring was late and the flooding meant the Germans couldn't invade in May.

ChrisDR68
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#4

Post by ChrisDR68 » 31 Jul 2014, 16:56

Three main reasons and all three pretty much decided on during the crucial year of 1941:

1. Continuing the u-boat war in the Atlantic (and even ramping it up) which drove the Roosevelt administration further and further into the Allied camp.
2. Deciding to invade Soviet Russia at a time when the German armed forces and logistical back up were unprepared for the extreme distances involved in invading geographically the largest country on the planet.
3. Declaring war on the United States following Pearl Harbor. Even at this late stage it's by no means certain that the US would have become involved in the European war as a belligerent without Hitler's foolish decision. The Americans may have taken the view "well we have our own war now".

Once Nazi Germany was at war with the United Kingdom (and her empire), the Soviet Union and the United States all the same time there was no hope for them in avoiding total defeat.

Kovymoga
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#5

Post by Kovymoga » 31 Jul 2014, 23:35

I think that war with the United States would have been unavoidable after Pearl Harbor. I dont see any scenario where Roosevelt dosen't declare war On Germany considering that Japan and Germany were allied.

steverodgers801
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#6

Post by steverodgers801 » 01 Aug 2014, 05:23

The US senate and house were determined to keep the US out of any European war and only a direct action would have caused a DOW

john2
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Re: Chris

#7

Post by john2 » 01 Aug 2014, 05:36

Germany could have still had a chance had she been able to knock out or negotiate a truce with Russia in '42 or '43. Had this happwned d day could not have taken place. However Germany might still have lost anyway because of the atomic bomb.

pugsville
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#8

Post by pugsville » 01 Aug 2014, 06:31

Because Germany was taking on most of the Industrialised world. Germany was heavily outnumbered in Industrial capacity, manpower and equipment. The Question isn't why did they lose, as the odds were such is they they were slated for defeat. The Question is why did they did as well as they did. The poor performance of France and it's early knock out of the war, the attitudes of USSR and USA. Both the USSR and USA were slow to hit there strides in terms of getting their resources into effective forces. the USA because they had such small pre-war forces and it took a long time. the USSR the pact with the Germans, the purges and the awful forward deployment and posture and shocking command in the early months of the war.

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mescal
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#9

Post by mescal » 01 Aug 2014, 09:08

steverodgers801 wrote:The US senate and house were determined to keep the US out of any European war and only a direct action would have caused a DOW
I would tend to call this a direct action :
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Olivier

csasch
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#10

Post by csasch » 04 Aug 2014, 15:50

I think there are many reasons why Germany lost the war. Some have been mentioned so I wont touch on them much. First, Yes, Hitler should not have declared war on the US. He was under no obligation to do so even though he had a pact with Japan, but that was only if Japan was attacked, not the attacker. The only way I think he should have is if he had an agreement Japan would then attack the USSR. By doing so it would make Stalin fight on 2 fronts, thus changing the outcome.

The next reason is after beating France they had no plans yet of how to deal with Britain, they still weren't on a wartime economy. Meaning producing war time supplies and equipment on a 24 hr schedule and thinking ahead. Once the battle of Britain was on they never properly dealt with the Chains-Holmes radar network, changed to bombing cities instead of continuing to deal with the RAF for air superiority. A lot has been made about Germany's bomber force not having heavy bombers. I would agree it would have been helpful. But when you compare their medium bombers to the allies heavies, they had sufficient range and bomb load to do what was asked. Where they were deficient was on their fighters. They had very capable fighters, but their range was too lacking to provide proper cover for the bombers in order for them to get through to the targets. Give them proper cover and things change.

Also Italy was more of a liability than a equal. Mainly because there Air force was equipped with either obsolete or useless aircraft, their Army had no useful Tanks/ vehicles, again most were obsolete or useless, and their Navy never did accomplish what it should have. This at a time when they had superiority due to England fighting the U Boat war, dealing with Germanys navy, ie battleships/ cruisers, protecting the colonies and dealing with Japan. Italy's biggest mistake was not equipping their fleet with radar, even though they had it. But they found where they mounted it, it would be knocked out by the concussion of their own guns. Had Italy's Navy had radar, a lot of those early engagements would likely have gone the other way.

Malta was never properly dealt with, nor Gibraltar, again this can be put on Italy. Had this been done, dealing with the desert war would have been easier to provide supplies to Rommel. Given the proper support, Rommel likely wins this war, providing Germany with stable supplies of oil. Also the people in the Mideast were mainly on Hitler's side. By winning this battle it also likely causes Churchill to be removed as Prim Minister, as most did not care for him and things were going badly. If he is removed Britain likely sues for peace.

As you see there are many reason why Germany lost the war, and while it is still unlikely they ever win, it not a give in either that they loose. Because it very likely could have happened, but too many mistakes were made. I have listed all, but this is a good start. You could get into wasting manpower, supplies on the, "Jewish Problem." Not properly planning for a prolonged war with Russia, once fighting Russia not treating the people better, as in the beginning they were looked at as liberators not conquers, and so on.

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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#11

Post by pugsville » 05 Aug 2014, 05:05

Malta was not that important, it only had a minimal effect of supplies to North Africa. The main problem was port capacity which was barley enough to supply the troops if everything worked at peak efficiency, and trucks, trucking everything vast distances meant the trucks consumed almost all of their load in fuel by the tim ether reached Egypt.

The Loss of Malta would not effect the campaign in North Africa. The British had a huge logistical base in Egypt that they could easily and quickly reinforce if in difficulty, (they had plenty of spare (isn) troops around the region). Rommel might have got lucky with a battle win and a confused pursuit breakthrough to Egypt but he would desirously need luck with things aligning for him,

There was no oil in Egypt. Getting to the Persian Gulf where the oil was would shave involved greater logistical challenges than getting from Tripoli to the Suez. Egypt to the Persian Gulf would be a long campaign where against the British would have a large logistical base in the Gulf where they would have a large advantage in the campaign.

Getting the oIl back from the Gulf is near impossible. Shipping ? 0% chance, no enough tankers and the numerous bases like Aden and Egypt would mean the Royal Navy would have no problems sinking them anyway. Building a high volume railway would take about a year and much resources.

The timeline campaign in north africa, (1 year) campaign to the Gulf (1 year) build up railways to ship to the Med and takers from there (another year) hmm it's late 1943 before any oil at all flow to Germany, and the Allies with Huge shipping reserves could easily mount a campaign from there numerous bases to take Gulf back before any oil at all reaches Germany.

The Southern Mediterrain - Middle Eastern Oil strategy is seductive but huge logistical problems means it looks very much a loser.

steverodgers801
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#12

Post by steverodgers801 » 05 Aug 2014, 10:42

even if the oil gets to Egypt, there was very limited tanker capacity and did the Germans and Italian have enough refinery capacity for the oil. Plus to get to the oil would mean a large influx of troops to guard both the south and east lines without an adequate supply train those troops

ljadw
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#13

Post by ljadw » 05 Aug 2014, 12:07

csasch wrote:

they still weren't on a wartime economy.

and their Navy never did accomplish what it should have.

. Given the proper support, Rommel likely wins this war, providing Germany with stable supplies of oil.


as in the beginning they were looked at as liberators not conquers, and so on.

1) Not true : see The Wages of Destruction

2)Not true : the Italian navy did a good job.

3Why ?

4)Not true,and besides ;irrelevant : the attitude of the population of the occupied Sviet territories was irrelevant for the outcome of Barbarossa .

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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#14

Post by j keenan » 05 Aug 2014, 19:03

Blisters and chafing their boots look like they would rub all the way to Moscow !!
Last edited by j keenan on 06 Aug 2014, 17:05, edited 1 time in total.

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BDV
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#15

Post by BDV » 06 Aug 2014, 15:23

j keenan wrote:Blisters and chafing there boots look like they would rub all the way to Moscow !!
So what the heck were they doing in Tikhvin and Rostov?!?? :wink:
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Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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