Reasons germany lost the war

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ljadw
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#331

Post by ljadw » 12 Jun 2015, 10:28

stg 44 wrote: pocketed the entire BEF.

This is wrong : it is common knowledge that only the half of the BEF was encircled at Dunkirk (195000 of 400000)

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stg 44
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#332

Post by stg 44 » 12 Jun 2015, 13:39

The combat elements were encircled those that were later evacuated were LOC support troops and a few combat divisions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ariel
Although Operation Dynamo at Dunkirk had evacuated much of the fighting element of the British Expeditionary Force, some combat units from 1st Armoured Division and Beauman Division and more than 150,000 support and line-of-communication troops had been cut off to the south by the German "dash to the sea".[2]


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stg 44
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#333

Post by stg 44 » 12 Jun 2015, 13:40

ljadw wrote:
stg 44 wrote: Other than the halt order preventing the Germans from going after Dunkirk 15km away for 2 days until after the British set up defenses and were able to resist and evacuate 300k men off the beaches; it was pretty disastrous and unnecessary for the Germans who could have occupied it when it was undefended .

This is an unproved statement.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Blitzkrieg-Le ... 1591142954
No pretty well proven.

ljadw
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#334

Post by ljadw » 12 Jun 2015, 14:06

stg 44 wrote:The combat elements were encircled those that were later evacuated were LOC support troops and a few combat divisions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ariel
Although Operation Dynamo at Dunkirk had evacuated much of the fighting element of the British Expeditionary Force, some combat units from 1st Armoured Division and Beauman Division and more than 150,000 support and line-of-communication troops had been cut off to the south by the German "dash to the sea".[2]
The LOC support troops were as important as the combat troops

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BDV
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#335

Post by BDV » 12 Jun 2015, 14:14

stg 44 wrote:Other than the halt order preventing the Germans from going after Dunkirk 15km away for 2 days until after the British set up defenses and were able to resist and evacuate 300k men off the beaches; it was pretty disastrous and unnecessary for the Germans who could have occupied it when it was undefended and pocketed the entire BEF.
We do have an historical equivalent.

German panzer also went (unsupported) for Velikyie Luki in 1941. With 16th Infantry Army stuck at Pustoshka, and the 9th infantry Army stuck at Polotsk, the Panzers had to abandon Velikiye Luki, which was not re-conquered until a month later.

In Flanders the southern support forces (Panzers and infantry) were stuck at Lille (Which did not surrender until July) and the northern German flank was stuck against the Dutch.

tl;dr Panzer-honchos did get to try their unsupported deep thrust nonsense in July 1941 and their hotheadedness bit the Wehrmacht and its Allies mirifically in the ass in July 1941.


I have never seen how taking (...and holding) Dunkirk would have prevented the British from evacuating through Nieuwpoort, or through the large port of Oostende.
Last edited by BDV on 12 Jun 2015, 14:20, edited 1 time in total.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#336

Post by stg 44 » 12 Jun 2015, 14:15

Not to front line combat and politically they were worth a lot less to rescue; they're certainly nice to have, but you aren't going to get over the fact that you've lost the combat half of your army in a matter of weeks.

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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#337

Post by ljadw » 12 Jun 2015, 14:15

stg 44 wrote:
ljadw wrote:
stg 44 wrote: Other than the halt order preventing the Germans from going after Dunkirk 15km away for 2 days until after the British set up defenses and were able to resist and evacuate 300k men off the beaches; it was pretty disastrous and unnecessary for the Germans who could have occupied it when it was undefended .

This is an unproved statement.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Blitzkrieg-Le ... 1591142954
No pretty well proven.

No : I have the book :Frieser is saying that on 24 may units of the 1PzD and of the LSS (the strength of which was not known) were more than 15 km away from Dunkirk (the LSS was at 30 km from Dunkirk).At that moment,Dunkirk was defended by allied units of which no one knows the strength and the firepower .

NO ONE can prove that without the Halt Order,these German units would have been able to capture Dunkirk .

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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#338

Post by stg 44 » 12 Jun 2015, 14:21

BDV wrote:
stg 44 wrote:Other than the halt order preventing the Germans from going after Dunkirk 15km away for 2 days until after the British set up defenses and were able to resist and evacuate 300k men off the beaches; it was pretty disastrous and unnecessary for the Germans who could have occupied it when it was undefended and pocketed the entire BEF.
We do have an historical equivalent.

German panzer also went (unsupported) for Velikyie Luki in 1941. With 16th Infantry Army stuck at Pustoshka, and the 9th infantry Army stuck at Polotsk, the Panzers had to abandon Velikiye Luki, which was not re-conquered until a month later.

In Flanders the southern support forces (Panzers and infantry) were stuck at Lille (Which did not surrender until July) and the northern German flank was stuck against the Dutch.

tl;dr Panzer-honchos did get to try their unsupported deep thrust nonsense in July 1941 and their hotheadedness bit the Wehrmacht and its Allies mirifically in the ass in July 1941.
What does that have to do with Dunkirk? 1st Panzer was available and told to sit still for two days. Historically the Belgians surrendered on the 27th and the last port besides Dunkirk, Oostend, was captured on the 29th. They just needed to move in and take an undefended port after brushing aside the weak French reserve division in front of them, which had been withdrawn from the fighting in Central Belgium. The disorganized British forces retreating to Dunkirk were not there until the 27th, but reinforcements had moved up to support the French and hold the line to the West of Dunkirk as British forces were moved back. The Halt Order was issued on the 23rd by Rundestedt and confirmed by Hitler on the 24th; had Hitler not confirmed that order 1st Panzer would have moved in on the 24th-25th and set up their own perimeter backed up by canals and good defensive terrain that the British historically used against the Germans.

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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#339

Post by stg 44 » 12 Jun 2015, 14:22

ljadw wrote:
stg 44 wrote:
ljadw wrote:
stg 44 wrote: Other than the halt order preventing the Germans from going after Dunkirk 15km away for 2 days until after the British set up defenses and were able to resist and evacuate 300k men off the beaches; it was pretty disastrous and unnecessary for the Germans who could have occupied it when it was undefended .

This is an unproved statement.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Blitzkrieg-Le ... 1591142954
No pretty well proven.

No : I have the book :Frieser is saying that on 24 may units of the 1PzD and of the LSS (the strength of which was not known) were more than 15 km away from Dunkirk (the LSS was at 30 km from Dunkirk).At that moment,Dunkirk was defended by allied units of which no one knows the strength and the firepower .

NO ONE can prove that without the Halt Order,these German units would have been able to capture Dunkirk .
Then go back and read it because Dunkirk itself was not held; the line opposite 1st Panzer was weakly held by a French reservist division and Frieser states that Dunkirk could have been taken if not for the Halt Order.

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BDV
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#340

Post by BDV » 12 Jun 2015, 14:27

stg 44 wrote:Not to front line combat and politically they were worth a lot less to rescue; they're certainly nice to have, but you aren't going to get over the fact that you've lost the combat half of your army in a matter of weeks.
You aren't engaging the enemy in large scale (~tens of divisions) ground combat any time soon.

So, you make a nice ceremony to honour of the sacrificial lambs and move on.

:milsmile: "à la guerre comme à la guerre"
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#341

Post by RichTO90 » 12 Jun 2015, 14:50

ljadw wrote:
stg 44 wrote: pocketed the entire BEF.

This is wrong : it is common knowledge that only the half of the BEF was encircled at Dunkirk (195000 of 400000)
"Common knowledge" is always problematic. :D

The BEF actually comprised two forces, the "first" BEF and the "second" - mostly 52 Lowland Division and 1 CIB - although 1 Armoured Division and 20 Guards Brigade could be considered as part of it as well, since the armored division landed south of the Somme beginning 15 May and the Guards at Boulogne on 21 May.

Total forces dispatched by the British Army to France were about 422,000. Of those, 27,936 were evacuated prior to 26 May, 198,365 were evacuated from Dunkirk, and 144,171 were evacuated from south of the Somme and southern France. Of those evacuated, as many as 16,815 were wounded, while another 47,959 were MIA and captured. From that point of view, only some 47% were "encircled at Dunkirk" and escaped.

However, of the 15 divisions eventually committed to France, 12 were "encircled at Dunkirk" and escaped, or 80%. Only one division did not escape from France, 51 Highland, losing about 8,000 prisoners, as many as 234 killed, and many missing in the campaign. Otherwise, 30 Brigade of 1 Armoured Division at Calais was lost.

So, no, the "entire BEF" was not pocketed at Dunkirk, but 80% of the most important part of the BEF was. Without its evacuation, especially the nine fully formed divisions (the five Regular and four 1st Line Territorial) it would have been difficult to reconstitute Home Forces to defend Britain in the summer and fall of 1940.

Cheers!

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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#342

Post by ljadw » 12 Jun 2015, 15:03

stg 44 wrote:
BDV wrote:
stg 44 wrote:Other than the halt order preventing the Germans from going after Dunkirk 15km away for 2 days until after the British set up defenses and were able to resist and evacuate 300k men off the beaches; it was pretty disastrous and unnecessary for the Germans who could have occupied it when it was undefended and pocketed the entire BEF.
We do have an historical equivalent.

German panzer also went (unsupported) for Velikyie Luki in 1941. With 16th Infantry Army stuck at Pustoshka, and the 9th infantry Army stuck at Polotsk, the Panzers had to abandon Velikiye Luki, which was not re-conquered until a month later.

In Flanders the southern support forces (Panzers and infantry) were stuck at Lille (Which did not surrender until July) and the northern German flank was stuck against the Dutch.

tl;dr Panzer-honchos did get to try their unsupported deep thrust nonsense in July 1941 and their hotheadedness bit the Wehrmacht and its Allies mirifically in the ass in July 1941.
What does that have to do with Dunkirk? 1st Panzer was available and told to sit still for two days. Historically the Belgians surrendered on the 27th and the last port besides Dunkirk, Oostend, was captured on the 29th. They just needed to move in and take an undefended port after brushing aside the weak French reserve division in front of them, which had been withdrawn from the fighting in Central Belgium. The disorganized British forces retreating to Dunkirk were not there until the 27th, but reinforcements had moved up to support the French and hold the line to the West of Dunkirk as British forces were moved back. The Halt Order was issued on the 23rd by Rundestedt and confirmed by Hitler on the 24th; had Hitler not confirmed that order 1st Panzer would have moved in on the 24th-25th and set up their own perimeter backed up by canals and good defensive terrain that the British historically used against the Germans.
Pz1 was not available: only parts of it were available

Belgium surrendered on 28 may,not on 27

ljadw
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#343

Post by ljadw » 12 Jun 2015, 15:05

stg 44 wrote:
ljadw wrote:
stg 44 wrote:
ljadw wrote:
stg 44 wrote: Other than the halt order preventing the Germans from going after Dunkirk 15km away for 2 days until after the British set up defenses and were able to resist and evacuate 300k men off the beaches; it was pretty disastrous and unnecessary for the Germans who could have occupied it when it was undefended .

This is an unproved statement.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Blitzkrieg-Le ... 1591142954
No pretty well proven.

No : I have the book :Frieser is saying that on 24 may units of the 1PzD and of the LSS (the strength of which was not known) were more than 15 km away from Dunkirk (the LSS was at 30 km from Dunkirk).At that moment,Dunkirk was defended by allied units of which no one knows the strength and the firepower .

NO ONE can prove that without the Halt Order,these German units would have been able to capture Dunkirk .
Then go back and read it because Dunkirk itself was not held; the line opposite 1st Panzer was weakly held by a French reservist division and Frieser states that Dunkirk could have been taken if not for the Halt Order.
Proof that the French division was weak ? And how many operational tanks ,artillery infantry did 1 PzD have available ? How much ammunition? How much supplies ?

ljadw
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#344

Post by ljadw » 12 Jun 2015, 15:29

stg 44 wrote:
ljadw wrote:
stg 44 wrote:
ljadw wrote:
stg 44 wrote: Other than the halt order preventing the Germans from going after Dunkirk 15km away for 2 days until after the British set up defenses and were able to resist and evacuate 300k men off the beaches; it was pretty disastrous and unnecessary for the Germans who could have occupied it when it was undefended .

This is an unproved statement.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Blitzkrieg-Le ... 1591142954
No pretty well proven.

No : I have the book :Frieser is saying that on 24 may units of the 1PzD and of the LSS (the strength of which was not known) were more than 15 km away from Dunkirk (the LSS was at 30 km from Dunkirk).At that moment,Dunkirk was defended by allied units of which no one knows the strength and the firepower .

NO ONE can prove that without the Halt Order,these German units would have been able to capture Dunkirk .
Then go back and read it because Dunkirk itself was not held; the line opposite 1st Panzer was weakly held by a French reservist division and Frieser states that Dunkirk could have been taken if not for the Halt Order.
No ,he did not : he was giving several (7) motives for the halt Order.

No one can prove that it was possible on 24 may to capture Dunkirk .

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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#345

Post by BDV » 12 Jun 2015, 15:52

stg 44 wrote:"BDV":

We do have an historical equivalent.

German panzer also went (unsupported) for Velikyie Luki in 1941. With 16th Infantry Army stuck at Pustoshka, and the 9th infantry Army stuck at Polotsk, the Panzers had to abandon Velikiye Luki, which was not re-conquered until a month later.

In Flanders the southern support forces (Panzers and infantry) were stuck at Lille (Which did not surrender until July) and the northern German flank was stuck against the Dutch.

tl;dr Panzer-honchos did get to try their unsupported deep thrust nonsense in July 1941 and their hotheadedness bit the Wehrmacht and its Allies mirifically in the ass in July 1941.


What does that have to do with Dunkirk?
It has to do that when the lunacy WAS tried, it met with unadulterated failure

1st Panzer was available and told to sit still for two days.
So now elements of one battle worn panzer division will defend successfully against elements of 10-20 enemy divisions? How did that work out in July 1941?
Historically the Belgians surrendered on the 27th and the last port besides Dunkirk, Oostend, was captured on the 29th.
No, there is also Nieuwpoort. And no relief is coming from the Northeast before the Anglo-French-Belgian forces crash into the first panzer in May 25-27. Of course "capture" is a figure of speech, as there was no one to defend it, Belgians having surrendered, and the franco-british having dug in 50 km SouthWest at Dunkirk.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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