stg 44 wrote: pocketed the entire BEF.
This is wrong : it is common knowledge that only the half of the BEF was encircled at Dunkirk (195000 of 400000)
stg 44 wrote: pocketed the entire BEF.
Although Operation Dynamo at Dunkirk had evacuated much of the fighting element of the British Expeditionary Force, some combat units from 1st Armoured Division and Beauman Division and more than 150,000 support and line-of-communication troops had been cut off to the south by the German "dash to the sea".[2]
http://www.amazon.com/The-Blitzkrieg-Le ... 1591142954ljadw wrote:stg 44 wrote: Other than the halt order preventing the Germans from going after Dunkirk 15km away for 2 days until after the British set up defenses and were able to resist and evacuate 300k men off the beaches; it was pretty disastrous and unnecessary for the Germans who could have occupied it when it was undefended .
This is an unproved statement.
The LOC support troops were as important as the combat troopsstg 44 wrote:The combat elements were encircled those that were later evacuated were LOC support troops and a few combat divisions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_ArielAlthough Operation Dynamo at Dunkirk had evacuated much of the fighting element of the British Expeditionary Force, some combat units from 1st Armoured Division and Beauman Division and more than 150,000 support and line-of-communication troops had been cut off to the south by the German "dash to the sea".[2]
We do have an historical equivalent.stg 44 wrote:Other than the halt order preventing the Germans from going after Dunkirk 15km away for 2 days until after the British set up defenses and were able to resist and evacuate 300k men off the beaches; it was pretty disastrous and unnecessary for the Germans who could have occupied it when it was undefended and pocketed the entire BEF.
stg 44 wrote:http://www.amazon.com/The-Blitzkrieg-Le ... 1591142954ljadw wrote:stg 44 wrote: Other than the halt order preventing the Germans from going after Dunkirk 15km away for 2 days until after the British set up defenses and were able to resist and evacuate 300k men off the beaches; it was pretty disastrous and unnecessary for the Germans who could have occupied it when it was undefended .
This is an unproved statement.
No pretty well proven.
What does that have to do with Dunkirk? 1st Panzer was available and told to sit still for two days. Historically the Belgians surrendered on the 27th and the last port besides Dunkirk, Oostend, was captured on the 29th. They just needed to move in and take an undefended port after brushing aside the weak French reserve division in front of them, which had been withdrawn from the fighting in Central Belgium. The disorganized British forces retreating to Dunkirk were not there until the 27th, but reinforcements had moved up to support the French and hold the line to the West of Dunkirk as British forces were moved back. The Halt Order was issued on the 23rd by Rundestedt and confirmed by Hitler on the 24th; had Hitler not confirmed that order 1st Panzer would have moved in on the 24th-25th and set up their own perimeter backed up by canals and good defensive terrain that the British historically used against the Germans.BDV wrote:We do have an historical equivalent.stg 44 wrote:Other than the halt order preventing the Germans from going after Dunkirk 15km away for 2 days until after the British set up defenses and were able to resist and evacuate 300k men off the beaches; it was pretty disastrous and unnecessary for the Germans who could have occupied it when it was undefended and pocketed the entire BEF.
German panzer also went (unsupported) for Velikyie Luki in 1941. With 16th Infantry Army stuck at Pustoshka, and the 9th infantry Army stuck at Polotsk, the Panzers had to abandon Velikiye Luki, which was not re-conquered until a month later.
In Flanders the southern support forces (Panzers and infantry) were stuck at Lille (Which did not surrender until July) and the northern German flank was stuck against the Dutch.
tl;dr Panzer-honchos did get to try their unsupported deep thrust nonsense in July 1941 and their hotheadedness bit the Wehrmacht and its Allies mirifically in the ass in July 1941.
Then go back and read it because Dunkirk itself was not held; the line opposite 1st Panzer was weakly held by a French reservist division and Frieser states that Dunkirk could have been taken if not for the Halt Order.ljadw wrote:stg 44 wrote:http://www.amazon.com/The-Blitzkrieg-Le ... 1591142954ljadw wrote:stg 44 wrote: Other than the halt order preventing the Germans from going after Dunkirk 15km away for 2 days until after the British set up defenses and were able to resist and evacuate 300k men off the beaches; it was pretty disastrous and unnecessary for the Germans who could have occupied it when it was undefended .
This is an unproved statement.
No pretty well proven.
No : I have the book :Frieser is saying that on 24 may units of the 1PzD and of the LSS (the strength of which was not known) were more than 15 km away from Dunkirk (the LSS was at 30 km from Dunkirk).At that moment,Dunkirk was defended by allied units of which no one knows the strength and the firepower .
NO ONE can prove that without the Halt Order,these German units would have been able to capture Dunkirk .
You aren't engaging the enemy in large scale (~tens of divisions) ground combat any time soon.stg 44 wrote:Not to front line combat and politically they were worth a lot less to rescue; they're certainly nice to have, but you aren't going to get over the fact that you've lost the combat half of your army in a matter of weeks.
"Common knowledge" is always problematic.ljadw wrote:stg 44 wrote: pocketed the entire BEF.
This is wrong : it is common knowledge that only the half of the BEF was encircled at Dunkirk (195000 of 400000)
Pz1 was not available: only parts of it were availablestg 44 wrote:What does that have to do with Dunkirk? 1st Panzer was available and told to sit still for two days. Historically the Belgians surrendered on the 27th and the last port besides Dunkirk, Oostend, was captured on the 29th. They just needed to move in and take an undefended port after brushing aside the weak French reserve division in front of them, which had been withdrawn from the fighting in Central Belgium. The disorganized British forces retreating to Dunkirk were not there until the 27th, but reinforcements had moved up to support the French and hold the line to the West of Dunkirk as British forces were moved back. The Halt Order was issued on the 23rd by Rundestedt and confirmed by Hitler on the 24th; had Hitler not confirmed that order 1st Panzer would have moved in on the 24th-25th and set up their own perimeter backed up by canals and good defensive terrain that the British historically used against the Germans.BDV wrote:We do have an historical equivalent.stg 44 wrote:Other than the halt order preventing the Germans from going after Dunkirk 15km away for 2 days until after the British set up defenses and were able to resist and evacuate 300k men off the beaches; it was pretty disastrous and unnecessary for the Germans who could have occupied it when it was undefended and pocketed the entire BEF.
German panzer also went (unsupported) for Velikyie Luki in 1941. With 16th Infantry Army stuck at Pustoshka, and the 9th infantry Army stuck at Polotsk, the Panzers had to abandon Velikiye Luki, which was not re-conquered until a month later.
In Flanders the southern support forces (Panzers and infantry) were stuck at Lille (Which did not surrender until July) and the northern German flank was stuck against the Dutch.
tl;dr Panzer-honchos did get to try their unsupported deep thrust nonsense in July 1941 and their hotheadedness bit the Wehrmacht and its Allies mirifically in the ass in July 1941.
Proof that the French division was weak ? And how many operational tanks ,artillery infantry did 1 PzD have available ? How much ammunition? How much supplies ?stg 44 wrote:Then go back and read it because Dunkirk itself was not held; the line opposite 1st Panzer was weakly held by a French reservist division and Frieser states that Dunkirk could have been taken if not for the Halt Order.ljadw wrote:stg 44 wrote:http://www.amazon.com/The-Blitzkrieg-Le ... 1591142954ljadw wrote:stg 44 wrote: Other than the halt order preventing the Germans from going after Dunkirk 15km away for 2 days until after the British set up defenses and were able to resist and evacuate 300k men off the beaches; it was pretty disastrous and unnecessary for the Germans who could have occupied it when it was undefended .
This is an unproved statement.
No pretty well proven.
No : I have the book :Frieser is saying that on 24 may units of the 1PzD and of the LSS (the strength of which was not known) were more than 15 km away from Dunkirk (the LSS was at 30 km from Dunkirk).At that moment,Dunkirk was defended by allied units of which no one knows the strength and the firepower .
NO ONE can prove that without the Halt Order,these German units would have been able to capture Dunkirk .
No ,he did not : he was giving several (7) motives for the halt Order.stg 44 wrote:Then go back and read it because Dunkirk itself was not held; the line opposite 1st Panzer was weakly held by a French reservist division and Frieser states that Dunkirk could have been taken if not for the Halt Order.ljadw wrote:stg 44 wrote:http://www.amazon.com/The-Blitzkrieg-Le ... 1591142954ljadw wrote:stg 44 wrote: Other than the halt order preventing the Germans from going after Dunkirk 15km away for 2 days until after the British set up defenses and were able to resist and evacuate 300k men off the beaches; it was pretty disastrous and unnecessary for the Germans who could have occupied it when it was undefended .
This is an unproved statement.
No pretty well proven.
No : I have the book :Frieser is saying that on 24 may units of the 1PzD and of the LSS (the strength of which was not known) were more than 15 km away from Dunkirk (the LSS was at 30 km from Dunkirk).At that moment,Dunkirk was defended by allied units of which no one knows the strength and the firepower .
NO ONE can prove that without the Halt Order,these German units would have been able to capture Dunkirk .
It has to do that when the lunacy WAS tried, it met with unadulterated failurestg 44 wrote:"BDV":
We do have an historical equivalent.
German panzer also went (unsupported) for Velikyie Luki in 1941. With 16th Infantry Army stuck at Pustoshka, and the 9th infantry Army stuck at Polotsk, the Panzers had to abandon Velikiye Luki, which was not re-conquered until a month later.
In Flanders the southern support forces (Panzers and infantry) were stuck at Lille (Which did not surrender until July) and the northern German flank was stuck against the Dutch.
tl;dr Panzer-honchos did get to try their unsupported deep thrust nonsense in July 1941 and their hotheadedness bit the Wehrmacht and its Allies mirifically in the ass in July 1941.
What does that have to do with Dunkirk?
So now elements of one battle worn panzer division will defend successfully against elements of 10-20 enemy divisions? How did that work out in July 1941?1st Panzer was available and told to sit still for two days.
No, there is also Nieuwpoort. And no relief is coming from the Northeast before the Anglo-French-Belgian forces crash into the first panzer in May 25-27. Of course "capture" is a figure of speech, as there was no one to defend it, Belgians having surrendered, and the franco-british having dug in 50 km SouthWest at Dunkirk.Historically the Belgians surrendered on the 27th and the last port besides Dunkirk, Oostend, was captured on the 29th.