Reasons germany lost the war

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mescal
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#46

Post by mescal » 04 Nov 2014, 19:10

Alixanther wrote: Not even Wikipedia has the nerve to call "your destroyer" an American one. At that time it was firmly and irrevocably a British destroyer.
Since everybody and its brother can edit Wikipedia, I usually take it with a grain of salt.

Anyway, at the time of the "incident", USS Kearny flew an American flag, was manned by American crewmen and was outside of any territorial waters.
Yes, she was for all practical purpose not fully neutral... but this does not in any way, shape or form make her a fully British warship.
See the difference of treatment with HMS Broadwater ... she was a former US warship (USS Mason) transfered in 1940. She sank during the same convoy, but it did not make an "incident".

The point is that, by attacking Kearny, the German Navy started killing Americans.
That was definitely not lost on Roosevelt

See how he told the tale to the American :

"We have wished to avoid shooting. But the shooting has started. And history has recorded who fired the first shot. In the long run, however, all that will matter is who fired the last shot.
America has been attacked. The U. S. S. Kearny is not just a Navy ship. She belongs to every man, woman, and child in this Nation."

Complete text can be found here :
http://www.usmm.org/fdr/kearny.html


The bottom line is that what counts here is not what the Germans intend, or the good faith or bad faith of Roosevelt, but the reaction the German actions will have in America.
And if the Roosevelt's administration want to interpret it as a direct aggression ... well, it's quite an uphill battle to contradict them when they have eleven men killed by a German torpedo to show for their "good faith".
Olivier

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bronk7
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#47

Post by bronk7 » 05 Nov 2014, 20:15

Graeme Sydney wrote:
steinmetz wrote:
The allies of German certainly did not contribute significant militarily as their armies were not of high quality. And German could not really choose its allies.
How many served, how many died? I think you are argumentative. Proportionally they gave as much or more than you could expect of them. Their military and economic strength and weaknesses, and their performance and value was predictable.

"And German could not really choose its allies.
" Why not? Germany most certainly could with a large degree of independence and initiative choose its enemies and if and when it went to war or if it choose diplomatic efforts to solve problems or gain advantage.
what were the military numbers of just Russia vs Germany + axis nations[ minus Japan ]?did not Russia alone equal Axis numbers on Eastern Front?


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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#48

Post by Alixanther » 05 Nov 2014, 20:31

mescal wrote:
Alixanther wrote: Not even Wikipedia has the nerve to call "your destroyer" an American one. At that time it was firmly and irrevocably a British destroyer.
Since everybody and its brother can edit Wikipedia, I usually take it with a grain of salt.

Anyway, at the time of the "incident", USS Kearny flew an American flag, was manned by American crewmen and was outside of any territorial waters.
Yes, she was for all practical purpose not fully neutral... but this does not in any way, shape or form make her a fully British warship.
See the difference of treatment with HMS Broadwater ... she was a former US warship (USS Mason) transfered in 1940. She sank during the same convoy, but it did not make an "incident".

The point is that, by attacking Kearny, the German Navy started killing Americans.
That was definitely not lost on Roosevelt

See how he told the tale to the American :

"We have wished to avoid shooting. But the shooting has started. And history has recorded who fired the first shot. In the long run, however, all that will matter is who fired the last shot.
America has been attacked. The U. S. S. Kearny is not just a Navy ship. She belongs to every man, woman, and child in this Nation."

Complete text can be found here :
http://www.usmm.org/fdr/kearny.html


The bottom line is that what counts here is not what the Germans intend, or the good faith or bad faith of Roosevelt, but the reaction the German actions will have in America.
And if the Roosevelt's administration want to interpret it as a direct aggression ... well, it's quite an uphill battle to contradict them when they have eleven men killed by a German torpedo to show for their "good faith".
The bottom line is: if you put your finger in the alligator's mouth it's not its fault, its yours.

If Roosevelt really cared about American (and not only) lives, he would not have brought American lives near the war. He was right about the "arsenal of democracy" - it was plenty enough they provided the British with war materiel, US lives lost to the war were superfluous.

What he did was directed against the British, not against the Germans. He wanted to decisively contribute to the downfall of the British Empire. The fact he brought more American troops to the war theaters was a signal to enforce his will to the British, no doubt about it.

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BDV
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#49

Post by BDV » 05 Nov 2014, 22:07

Mescal,

FDRs bloviatorial hotwind proves what? beyond what he had already made amply clear in the ultimatum to Schicklgruber and Benito of April (IIRC) 1939.

USofA's Imperial President par excellence (and twice the ladies man epigons like JFK and LBJ proved to be) had already made clear that American boys will die and American Treasury twill be spent to thwart German designs in Europe - at wherever they contradicted United States of America's designs.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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mescal
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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#50

Post by mescal » 05 Nov 2014, 22:32

My initial point was an answer to steverodgers801 who stated that only "direct action" would move the US Senate from isolationism to intervention and DoW.

I just stated that direct actions between US forces and German forces actually took place in the fall of 1941.

And I later expanded that FDR could more or less at will create as many "direct actions" as required, without failing to present it as an intolerable Nazi attack against USA (and this totally irrespectively of the details, actual responsabilities etc ... ).
Olivier

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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#51

Post by detaf » 30 Nov 2014, 14:59

Because the russians had the T 34 in 1941 versus panzer III

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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#52

Post by Erwinn » 23 Dec 2014, 16:57

When they allied themselves with Japan for no reason. Japan betrayed them in every single occasion. They did not attack Russia and went on to attack USA instead. Imagine Japanese divisions pouring into Siberia. Two front war for already doomed Soviets. No Japan attack to USA - No DOW against USA by Hitler. No 1/2 million trucks issued by USA to the Russians, no critically needed food supplies to be delivered over no land lease in bigger scale... Russia would be doomed.

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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#53

Post by LWD » 01 Jan 2015, 20:10

Why would they want to attack Russia or even the USSR? They weren't obligated to so no betrayal there.

I think you overestimate the IJA capabilities and indeed the critical Japanese vulnerabilities of the time.

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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#54

Post by Alixanther » 11 Jan 2015, 14:18

Japan did not betray the Deutsches Reich, but Hitler imo should not have felt obliged to declare anything. Japan divisions couldn't do jack against Soviet forces, the Chinese were already too much for Japan Army. The only timeframe where they could have achieved anything against Soviet Russia would be in december '41 when all Soviet troops went West to fix the breach. That was the only time when a Japanese adventure would reap positive results. (= forcing Stalin to ask for a stalemate, that is)

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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#55

Post by bf109 emil » 12 Feb 2015, 11:19

Strategies, battles, weapons, etc. aside in order for Germany to win the war, said combatants must surrender or come to terms. IIRC was there not talk that if Germany invaded and controlled Great Britain, I believe that the RN would sail to Canada and Britain would fight on, even though occupied. Similarly on the eastern front there was no magic target that would signal victory, no specific number of enemy killed or lands captured that would automatically result in German victory. Germany lost World War 1 because there government signed a surrender. Was there army defeated or all killed? No, was there country invaded and physically destroyed? No, it was a government that signed a surrender. Victory means another foe has surrendered, capitulated, armistice etc. to another. Until this happened Germany had no hope of ever sustaining a victory irregardless of battles won, land conquered, or enemy killed. Yes Germany lost the war but IMHO they had no chance of ever winning it against Allied governments during this era, combat aside.

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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#56

Post by ljadw » 12 Feb 2015, 14:11

[quote="Erwinn" Imagine Japanese divisions pouring into Siberia.

- No DOW against USA by Hitler.

No 1/2 million trucks issued by USA to the Russians.[/quote]


1))Let's not imagine :imagination is for politicians


2)Why no DOW?

3)Why no 1/2 million trucks ?

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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#57

Post by Erwinn » 12 Feb 2015, 14:58

1) Maybe right, maybe wrong. Japanese could do okay with Caucasus oil.
2) Why does Hitler needs DOW USA while he didn't do it until December 41? What does he gain from that rather than making a gesture towards Japanese?
3) Over 400.000 US made lend lease trucks and jeeps, ~12000 armored vehicles surely didn't help Red Army you're right.

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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#58

Post by ljadw » 12 Feb 2015, 18:07

You are avoiding to answer my questions by making childish remarks.

Your first answer is totally meaningless .
You said that without PH,there would be no German DOW on the US : I asked :why ?

You said that without PH,there would be no LL to the SU : I asked : why ?

Answer,please .

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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#59

Post by bf109 emil » 13 Feb 2015, 09:56

German DOW was made as a result of PH. And Hitlers pledge to Matsuoka on March 27,1941...we cannot tell if there would have been one without PH as this event assured it would indeed be declared. A possible what if thread.

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Re: Reasons germany lost the war

#60

Post by ljadw » 13 Feb 2015, 17:23

bf109 emil wrote:German DOW was made as a result of PH.
This is more than questionable .

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