When did Hitler realise/acknowledge defeat

[john2]

You are entitled to your opinion but writing off Hitler as crazy is simply too easy. What exactly would you have Hitler do in the 1943/1944 period? Again you are ignoring my point about Hitler's view of 1918 - the whole reason for his for struggle power. Had Hitler surrendered then a new myth about Germany being cheated out of victory would have been born.

[Graeme Sydney]

You are entitled to your opinion but writing off Hitler as crazy is simply too easy. What exactly would you have Hitler do in the 1943/1944 period? Again you are ignoring my point about Hitler's view of 1918 - the whole reason for his for struggle power. Had Hitler surrendered then a new myth about Germany being cheated out of victory would have been born.

You still haven't read the references or taken my suggestion of further googling.

There's plenty of info......

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=hitl ... 8Qep4YCQAg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mind_of_Adolf_Hitler

If you read as suggested you would have found it not just my opinion but a widely held professional diagnosis and WW2 historic diagnosis.

"What exactly would you have Hitler do in the 1943/1944 period? Again you are ignoring my point about Hitler's view of 1918 - the whole reason for his for struggle power. Had Hitler surrendered then a new myth about Germany being cheated out of victory would have been born." .........is argumentative and a red herring to this discussion

[BDV]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Adolf, on addition to being the big loser in the mother of all confrontations, was also by available evidence a man struck with pulmonary fibrosis, a progressive, still uniformly fatal disease, with life expectancy of 2 years.

Under these circumstances, Hitler the madman strikes more like a propaganda line, armchair psychiatrising.

This view is to me the most reasonable explanation for the end-war behavior of Adolf.

It's of no secret nature that the "Mitteleuropa" concept of German politics demanded for a balanced position between Western and Eastern enemies. It's been there since Bismark, if not earlier.
...
I see that every ounce of war effort after Stalingrad as being directed not towards winning the war but cautiously moving the war parties towards a future half-a-century enmity which would prop Germany as yet again an uncontested European superpower, through peaceful means this time.
As soon as '42 Goering has made some plans for a "European Union" of some sort.
After D-day landings, Hitler and everyone else realized there's no use to get grip of Soviet Russia up to Moscow if the Allies come knocking at Germany's door - as it has already happened during WW1.
...
This "controlled implosion" of the Reich borders led Hitler to believe he's able to dictate the outcome of the war (even from a loser perspective) on the grounds of "tertium gaudens". Which he pursued until he finally realized it has been out of his hand and any decision would have no further political importance.

Alixanther

Remember, neither Adolf, Bormann, Himmler, or Goebbels had a chance to give us their perspective of the war's end, while Goring, the lone top-Nazi survivor had been both marginalized and had found other pursuits (i.e. building the Goring steel emporium).

[Graeme Sydney]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Adolf, on addition to being the big loser in the mother of all confrontations, was also by available evidence a man struck with pulmonary fibrosis, a progressive, still uniformly fatal disease, with life expectancy of 2 years.

Googling 'pulmonary fibrosis hitler' I got nothing....

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=pulm ... 8Qehn4HQAg

There appears no literature, no evidence or discussion that Hitler suffered pulmonary fibrosis or that it impacted on his health or decision making.

Googling 'pulmonary fibrosis' I got;

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=pulm ... 8Qehn4HQAg

And....

"Symptoms of pulmonary fibrosis are mainly:[3]

Shortness of breath, particularly with exertion
Chronic dry, hacking coughing
Fatigue and weakness
Chest discomfort
Loss of appetite and rapid weight loss "

None are these are a particularly neat or complete fit for the symptoms Hitler suffered at the end. And they could also be explained by other causes including stress, over worked, fatigue and depression. In Hitler's case they could also be explained by the fact that he suffered a gas attack during WW1 (which could have triggered pulmonary fibrosis or another disease).

Pulmonary fibrosis does not explain Hitler's psychosis which is so widely discussed and acknowledged by professionals and historians.

Googling 'pulmonary fibrosis life expectancy' I got ......

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=pulm ... 8Qehn4HQAg

and.....

http://www.medicinenet.com/pulmonary_fi ... y_fibrosis

"Pulmonary fibrosis is usually diagnosed in patients in their mid-forties and fifties, though this is not a rule of generalization, as children (6 to 8 years old) and senior citizens have also fallen prey to this disease."

"The prognosis of this disease is poor. The survival of patients with this disease is less than 5 years."

"the life expectancy due to this disease is quite bleak, with two to five years being an average. This time-line is slightly flexible, as it depends on the rate of deterioration."

Given this life expectancy it is unlikely that Hitler had suffered it for 50 odd years (Hitler was considered a sickly child and overly mothered by his mother (and taunted by his father). If Hitler suffered Pulmonary fibrosis it was late onset Pulmonary fibrosis and not a dominant factor in explaining his behaviour and decision making at the end.

Under these circumstances, Hitler the madman strikes more like a propaganda line, armchair psychiatrising.

(I'll avoid the obvious retort to a barb of this nature.)

I have offered a wide range of references of professional discussions and diagnosis of Hitlers psychosis that explain Hitler's historic behaviour and decision making form 1912 to 1945. You offered nothing but unsupported opinion.

[wenty]

Does anyone have a source for this idea that Hitler had pulmonary fibrosis? I've heard that he was suffering from many things - including Parkinson's disease - but not that.

I don't think that Hitler was mad/crazy in the traditional sense of the word, and he may have had glimpses of his forthcoming defeat as early as 1942/43, but he had built himself a sort of cocoon where he felt sure that Germany would ultimately be delivered victory. Instead of blaming himself, he blamed the incompetence of his generals and his armies, ordering them not to retreat even when the situation was hopeless. Many of his officers told him situations with sugar on top to appease him, and those who dared to question him quite often found themselves arrested, demoted or worse.

Let's face it, the heirarchy of the reich was an absolute shambles by early 1945.

Cheers,
Adam.

[David1819]

When it comes to Hitler's mental state I do not consider him Insane/Crazy or suffering from any major mental illness considering the following points.

1. If you put yourself in his shoes for a minute. You are fighting in WW1 your regiment is constantly being wiped out and you keep surviving you become a decorated war veteran iron cross first class ect. You run a political campaign and survive several bomb/assasination attempts, People keep telling you that you will fail but you become "Fuhrer" then have a string of spectacular military victories. I strongly believe anyone in that situation would become grandiose and feel a sense of destiny, Hitler's narcissism was probably a normal psychological reaction to his accomplishments.

2. People say he was commanding imaginary forces and military units that did not exist. That does sound crazy however at this stage of the war he was surrounded by "Yes Men" that gave him a very optimistic and positive picture of what was happening as they where too afraid to tell him what was actually happening. I think you will find these imaginary military units where a result of bad communication as no one wanted to be the bearer of bad news.

3. The idea of breeding space in the east for the German people was first taught to him by his history teacher when he was a boy. Plus scientific racism was all to common in Science and Anthropology, Such as Houston Stewart Chamberlain and Mein Kampf was influenced by The Passing of the Great Race by anthropologist Madison Grant. Many believe Hitler had a crazy fantasy ideology when infact it was taught to him by others.

In my opinion he was not insane or mad at all. Claiming Hitler was ill or mad is simply a way for people to remove any humanity from Hitler as they like to believe that humans are not capable of such things. I believe Hitler was a rational/normal person considering the unique circumstances around him and his life. He most probably had a high IQ in the region of the top 10% and very high motivation levels when it came to certain things. Those are probably the only two that things that set him apart from the average person

[Boby]

People say he was commanding imaginary forces and military units that did not exist.

This can only be applied to the last days of April 1945. On 16 april 1945, opposing Soviet Armies in the Oder there were 800.000 soldiers, hardly "imaginary forces".

[j keenan]

Instead of putting up endless posts going over the same garbage try reading a book ! Instead of quoting garbage off the net
Hitler and his Generals by Helmut Heiber & David M. Glantz will give you the best incite into what went on during the Military Conferences 42-45.

[BDV]

Mustard gas exposure is associated with lung fibrosis.

Although I might have to backpedal on the Adolf's pulmonary fibrosis, as such.

[john2]

It's possible Hitler might have had parkinsons disease since he shook alot. But even if he was sick I don't think that necessarily has a bearing on his decision making. Without this turning into a what if what exactly were realistic options for Hitler? I think it was correct to fight on until 1944 but after D day and the failure of the V weapons there should have been peace negotiations. While this sounds nice in theory it would have been very difficult. For starters the standing allied peace terms by then were unconditional surrender. The allies would only think of changing these terms if Hitler were removed. But stepping down would have been a major humiliation for Hitler - made even worse by the fact the allies would demand he be handed over as a war criminal. The most realistic scenario is that Hitler suicides in 1944 - say on July 20 he shoots himself and saves his would be assassins the trouble. This would be alot to swallow for anyone - not only he does he have to surrender he has to kill himself too. Basically Hitler needed the war to continue because if it ended in defeat he would have to commit suicide. Add to this his views of 1918 and you can see why he would he want to fight on.

[Graeme Sydney]

In my opinion he was not insane or mad at all. Claiming Hitler was ill or mad is simply a way for people to remove any humanity from Hitler as they like to believe that humans are not capable of such things. I believe Hitler was a rational/normal person considering the unique circumstances around him and his life. He most probably had a high IQ in the region of the top 10% and very high motivation levels when it came to certain things. Those are probably the only two that things that set him apart from the average person

People say nice things about Ted Bundy, Gary Ridgwell, Stalin and other mass murders as well, and they all are considered above average intelligence. About 1% of the world's population is considered Pathologically Narcissistic and about 4-5% boarder line. They are not all locked up, most are socially functional (to some degree) and some are very successful because of their single minded obsessiveness and focus

David and John, open your minds, read the references and learn more about life, people, psychology, personality disorders and Hitler's personality. If you understand Hitler's personality you will have greater insight and understanding of WW2, Hitler, Germany, people and life.

[john2]

I'm not trying to attack you personally but I believe I have offered valid non crazy reasons why Hitler chose to fight on. You just dismiss them because you don't like them. Obviously Hitler must have had psychological issues since since he was brutal and killed many people but many of his decisions - as far as grand strategy was concerned were rational.

[David1819]

People say nice things about Ted Bundy, Gary Ridgwell, Stalin and other mass murders as well, and they all are considered above average intelligence. About 1% of the world's population is considered Pathologically Narcissistic and about 4-5% boarder line. They are not all locked up, most are socially functional (to some degree) and some are very successful because of their single minded obsessiveness and focus

David and John, open your minds, read the references and learn more about life, people, psychology, personality disorders and Hitler's personality. If you understand Hitler's personality you will have greater insight and understanding of WW2, Hitler, Germany, people and life.

Did I say anything nice about Hitler?

As for "personality disorders" that are in the DSM I think allot of it is down to societies fixation with classifying people and do not give them much consideration. Hitler most definatly fit the criteria for Psychopathy so did Napoleon and one of the symptoms of Psychopathy is "Absence of Delusions" some call it "a Psychopath" I call such individual a natural born leader.

[David1819]

I just realised that we might not get a solid answer to this.

Did Hitler ever mention such a thing or along the lines of defeat to his inner circle or generals and have they noted it down in diary's or other notes to prove it? I did read somewhere that Hitler mentioned to Erwin Rommel in 1943 that "the war has been militarily lost" but I made no effort to conform or verify the claim as I considered it was a bit suspect. but if anyone has any primary information such as that please share.

Other than that all we can do is speculate

[Graeme Sydney]

There are none so blind as those who don't want to see :roll: .