Had Hitler listened to his generals would ww2 have happened?

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john2
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Had Hitler listened to his generals would ww2 have happened?

#1

Post by john2 » 27 Oct 2014, 11:15

Most people say Hitler lost because he didn't listen to the generals. Well the fact is they opposed Hitler at every step. They were opposed to conscription and the Rhineland and opposed Hitler's plans to invade Czechoslovakia and Poland (for fear of fighting Britain and France). So had really listened to his generals Germany it seems would never have gone to war in the first place.

ljadw
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Re: Had Hitler listened to his generals would ww2 have happe

#2

Post by ljadw » 27 Oct 2014, 12:04

This is not correct;

1)The conscription plans were elaborated before 1933

2)The Generals were not opposed to the remilitarisation of the Rhineland

3)Ditto for CZ

4)Ditto for Poland .

No one resigned because he opposed these points .


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BDV
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Saubere Wehrmacht - Legende

#3

Post by BDV » 27 Oct 2014, 14:32

john2 wrote:Most people say Hitler lost because he didn't listen to the generals. Well the fact is they opposed Hitler at every step. They were opposed to conscription and the Rhineland and opposed Hitler's plans to invade Czechoslovakia and Poland (for fear of fighting Britain and France). So had really listened to his generals Germany it seems would never have gone to war in the first place.
The opposition in the generals' rank was dealt with by the political arm of the state, more prominent in 1934 and 1938. The juniors were only willing to sell their senior up the river for favours and speedy advancement - with disastrous on-field results. Few opposed Hitler "at every step", and those were eliminated or effectively marginalized. Even moreso, without generals' enthusiatic participation, the "excesses" of Einsatzkommandos in 1941, Would Not Happen.

Bottom line, german generals were a motley crew, but those who saw active wartime duty were squarely behind the German war aim (supremacy on the Continental Europe, and destruction of Bolshevik Russia). Those that saw spectacular advancements (e.g. Manstein, Guderian, Rommel, and the like) were staunch Nazis, as well. Some were (as far as I can tell) blatant opportunists ("120 Wristwatches" Manstein), some were true Nazis (Model).

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

PS.
On Adolf's 50'th birthday, 29th Aprl 1939, 42% of the commanding officers chose not to make speeches. 58%, then, DID, saying among other things:
"we soldiers pledge to our Fuhrer: in defiance of all the powers to protect his accomplishments, including in battle, to enforce his will, wherever he may lead us." also spracht Erich "120 Armbanduhr" Manstein.

tl;dr WWI British soldiers might've been led by donkeys, but the WWII german soldiers were surely led by hyenas.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

Boby
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Re: Had Hitler listened to his generals would ww2 have happe

#4

Post by Boby » 28 Oct 2014, 12:12

No one resigned because he opposed these points .
Wrong. Ludwig Beck in 1938.

There were many generals opposed to Hitler's plans, but few of them resigned.

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Re: Had Hitler listened to his generals would ww2 have happe

#5

Post by ljadw » 28 Oct 2014, 12:49

Beck did not resign because he opposed the plans of Hitler concerning CZ,but,because in his POV,the time was not ripe . (there were also other reasons)

1)In november 1937,Beck said the following ;I do NOT dispute the expediency of settling the CZ business (possibly the Austrian one too) when the opportunity arises.......

2)On 29 may 1938:

a)..............

b) it is correct that CZ in the form imposed on her by Versailles is unacceptable to Germany and a way must be found of ELIMINATING her as a source of danger by WARLIKE means if necessary ...........


3)His memorandum of 3 june however,shows that he rejected forcible action solely on the ground that the time was not ripe .

Source : The Army,Politics and Society in Germany :1933-1945 PP 76/77

Germanicus Nero
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Re: Had Hitler listened to his generals would ww2 have happe

#6

Post by Germanicus Nero » 28 Oct 2014, 15:17

why would you oppose conscription if you had backed the Nazi's and put them in powere for this very reason?

EVERYONE wanted conscription, but the differing ideas of exactly what that meant were freely interpreted by Ernst Rohm as a New Model Brownshirt Army, with Rohm in charge, and the Army and the sacred General Staff subsumed into the organisation.

Army Chiefs were horrified at the thought that their carefully husbanded 100,000 men would be diluted by "The Brown Trash", and all their carefully laid plans along with it.

The Deutschland Pact was the blank cheque handed to the Nazi government to purge the Partei of distasteful elements. To quote,

"Rearmament is too serious an issue to be left in the hands of drunkards and homosexuals." :milwink:

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Re: Had Hitler listened to his generals would ww2 have happe

#7

Post by Appleknocker27 » 28 Oct 2014, 19:10

john2 wrote:Most people say Hitler lost because he didn't listen to the generals. Well the fact is they opposed Hitler at every step. They were opposed to conscription and the Rhineland and opposed Hitler's plans to invade Czechoslovakia and Poland (for fear of fighting Britain and France). So had really listened to his generals Germany it seems would never have gone to war in the first place.
Germany would have gone to war eventually. General Beck may have remained the Chief of the General Staff;

"In Beck's conception of power politics, war was a necessary part of restoring Germany to Great Power status provided that these wars were limited in scope and Germany possessed sufficient strength and had sufficiently strong allies"

If Beck were left in charge and his advice taken, Germany may have started the same aggressive wars later and been better prepared and possibly politically isolated its enemies prior to hostilities.

Beck was a traditional Prussian officer looking to restore Germany's great power status and in no way a Nazi. If Beck had remained and had the support of his fellow Generals then a world war may have been averted and Hitler possibly removed at some point. Beck opposed Hitler in 1937-8, tried to curb his ambitions, openly spoke of reducing the power of the SA/SS and was disgusted with the Nazi racial agenda.

"At the beginning of August 1938, Beck wrote a speech for Brauchitsch to read before Hitler stating the Army's opposition to the "premature war" likely to be triggered by Fall Grün, which, however, Brauchitsch chose not to deliver.[38] In August 1938, Beck suggested to Brauchitsch that a "house-cleaning" of the Nazi regime was necessary, under which the influence of the SS be reduced, but Hitler would continue as dictator.[39] At an 10 August summit the leading generals of the Reich, Hitler spent much of the time attacking Beck's arguments against Fall Grün, and won the majority of the generals over"

john2
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Re: Had Hitler listened to his generals would ww2 have happe

#8

Post by john2 » 29 Oct 2014, 04:54

Opposition to the invasion of Czechoslovakia is the most known with plans for a coup when Hitler gave the order. However because of Munich the plot was called off. It is unclear however why there seems to be no coup plans in 1939 when Germany really did go to war.

ljadw
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Re: Had Hitler listened to his generals would ww2 have happe

#9

Post by ljadw » 29 Oct 2014, 08:10

john2 wrote:Opposition to the invasion of Czechoslovakia is the most known with plans for a coup when Hitler gave the order.


However because of Munich the plot was called off.


It is unclear however why there seems to be no coup plans in 1939 when Germany really did go to war.

1)The coup plans remained plans,there is no proof that they would be executed

2)This is what Halder told after the war,to blame B + F for the outbreak of the war and to gloss over the responsabilities of the German generals

3) It is very clear why there were no coup plans in 1939:because they all were behind Hitler's plans to attack Poland .

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Re: Had Hitler listened to his generals would ww2 have happe

#10

Post by wenty » 30 Oct 2014, 10:53

I agree that World War II almost certainly would have happened anyway, there was a lot of support for Hitler throughout the 1930's both amongst his own people and by the public generally. However, the real mistake was not listening to his generals and taking control of everything himself during the war, especially during the latter stages. By then a number of generals could see the writing on the wall - some said so or acted on it, often to their own detriment - but it was of course too late.

Cheers,
Adam.

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bronk7
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Re: Had Hitler listened to his generals would ww2 have happened?

#11

Post by bronk7 » 01 Dec 2014, 20:26

when did Canaris and Tresckow initially think hitler was [to say the least ] not good for Germany? I thought it was early in the war [if not sooner ] ??...seems like more than a few higher ranks/civilians did not want to go to war.....?

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bronk7
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Re: Had Hitler listened to his generals would ww2 have happe

#12

Post by bronk7 » 01 Dec 2014, 20:27

ljadw wrote:
john2 wrote:Opposition to the invasion of Czechoslovakia is the most known with plans for a coup when Hitler gave the order.


However because of Munich the plot was called off.


It is unclear however why there seems to be no coup plans in 1939 when Germany really did go to war.

1)The coup plans remained plans,there is no proof that they would be executed

2)This is what Halder told after the war,to blame B + F for the outbreak of the war and to gloss over the responsabilities of the German generals

3) It is very clear why there were no coup plans in 1939:because they all were behind Hitler's plans to attack Poland .
how many agreed with hitler as to how many were just following orders?/threats?

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