Pz.Gr. West & 10. SS

[doogal]

I have read this quote in a few posts the question comes at the end:

[quote]The Germans did leave some subjective judgements, made by commanders and inspectorates. Panzer Troops West assessed the German panzer troops in France on 6 June 1944 in order of combat effiiency

2. Pz.Div.: (Good field commander, well backed with equipment & manpower)
9. SS-Pz.Div., (Excellent commander Bitterich, a first class trainer)
12. SS-Pz.Div. (excellent divisional commander with a passion for advanced training methods, weak subordinate officers and NCOs)
Pz.LehrDiv. (well provided with material, good commander with modern methods, weak infantry and combined arms training)
11. Pz.Div. (Experienced commanders, well trained and experienced cadre augmented by recruits)
2. SS-Pz.Div. (Enough veterans in reformed division and ethios of 1st commander (Paul Hausser) to maintain high standards. Best tank bn in the west.)
21. Pz.Div. (Rebuilt from undesirable personnel casts off from other divisions. Basic fault in organisation. French manufactured equipment)
9. Pz.Div. Too many changes in commanders and key staff officers, training hampered by over use for construction work.
17. SS-Pz.Gren.Div. (Poor material , trained in haste performance depended on two men Ostendorf and Frick, performance deteriorated after Ostendorf became a casualty) .
116. Pz.Div.
10. SS-Pz.Div. ("Unlucky in its Divisional commanders)
1. SS-Pz.Div. ( Bled white in Russia, unable to fill gaps from casualties and cadres taken for the 12 SS.Discipline a sham, NCOs Poor. not enough time to train before the invasion))User avatar
Sheldrake
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Website [/quote

The question I have is why did Pzr Grp West believe 10SS had been unlucky in all its divisional commanders, I believe they were Michael Lippert (understandable) Lothar Debes (unknown) Karl Fischer von Treuenfeld (wounded at Tarnopol)and then I believe Heinz Harmel. Was Harmel not an experienced officer who served a level under Bittrich commander of 9SS.

[BramvanS]

I don't think Lippert was commander of Frundsberg.

Furthermore Heinz Harmel was not a bad commander. I think meant is the rapid changes of commanders between 1943 and June 1943, when both Debes and Treuenfeldt were replaced.

[doogal]

Not sure but I have not got a decent source:( further than an internet one that Lippert was wounded while in command of SS Regiment 8 in the east (no details as to the dates and where) and transferred to the newly forming 10SS before going to the SS Unterfuhrer-schule in Holland. Although he may have only been a regimental commander. http://www.defendingarnhem.com/lippert.htm
ps did Lippert shoot Ernst Rohm..

[BramvanS]

According to the Personalakten in John Moores FL Lippert was at Frundsberg from 1-10-1943 until 1-2-1944.

Furthermore Lippert was according to John Moore in January 1944 commander of the "Nachschub" (Supply).

[detaf]

Interesting background information