Would a smaller barbarossa work?

[Alixanther]

1)Brauchitz did not resign : he was replaced because of ilness

2)The generals did not oust Thälmann

3) Eisner was murdered by a nationalist not by the military clique

4) Luxemburg was murdered after a communist revolt had been crashed

5) There was in the winter of 41/42 a crisis on the Eastern Front (later exaggerated for obvious reasons) and this crisis would not disappear if there was a military coup d'état

6)No one considered the generals of the Eastern Front as incompetent traitors,not even Hitler :some generals panicked and were replaced : 2 were fired for insubordination : Guderian (he should have been fired long before) and Höppner.

7) Hitler took over because of the crisis,as did the Czar in the beginning of WWI.

1. If that was the case, he would have designated a military replacement. As a matter of fact, the illness was his excuse to resign.
2. As I said, it was Freikorps, which was a paramilitary organisation of former military in WW1. Whom do you think had the command in these formations, simple soldiers?
3. He was killed by a count, which is almost synonimous to a military leader, and he received a "honour imprisonement" from the regime (= his killing was most approved). Most of the junkers were aristocrats. As a matter of fact, you can find a handful of WW1 German officers who were NOT aristocrats.
4. I'm not talking about the death of Rosa Luxemburg, which is a completely different mattter, only about her exit of power after Thalmann's venture.
5. That crisis was the immediate effect of the military not having a backup plan. Hitler, plotting as always, politically benefited from it by seizing command power on the East. It would have been extremely hard to seize that power in different circumstances.
6. Yes, the simple soldiers despised the officer Korps long before the conflict (don't forget the original Heer only comprised a handful of soldiers - 100,000, the rest of the Wehrmacht came from the SA after '34) and suspected them of treason on various occasions on the Eastern Front. There were quite a few occasions when some military men crossed the trenches and went to the Soviets along with various maps and plans, warning them of an impending attack or some other military initiative. Most of these individuals were NOT soldiers, since ordinary soldiers usually have no access to such plans. Thus, the mass of the soldiers, who were exposed to Soviet arm and artillery fire, had no sensibility to such types of people.
7. That's old news.

[ljadw]

1. If that was the case, he would have designated a military replacement. As a matter of fact, the illness was his excuse to resign.
2. As I said, it was Freikorps, which was a paramilitary organisation of former military in WW1. Whom do you think had the command in these formations, simple soldiers?
3. He was killed by a count, which is almost synonimous to a military leader, and he received a "honour imprisonement" from the regime (= his killing was most approved). Most of the junkers were aristocrats. As a matter of fact, you can find a handful of WW1 German officers who were NOT aristocrats.
4. I'm not talking about the death of Rosa Luxemburg, which is a completely different mattter, only about her exit of power after Thalmann's venture.
5. That crisis was the immediate effect of the military not having a backup plan. Hitler, plotting as always, politically benefited from it by seizing command power on the East. It would have been extremely hard to seize that power in different circumstances.
6. Yes, the simple soldiers despised the officer Korps long before the conflict (don't forget the original Heer only comprised a handful of soldiers - 100,000, the rest of the Wehrmacht came from the SA after '34) and suspected them of treason on various occasions on the Eastern Front. There were quite a few occasions when some military men crossed the trenches and went to the Soviets along with various maps and plans, warning them of an impending attack or some other military initiative. Most of these individuals were NOT soldiers, since ordinary soldiers usually have no access to such plans. Thus, the mass of the soldiers, who were exposed to Soviet arm and artillery fire, had no sensibility to such types of people.
7. That's old news.

1)Brauchitz did NOT resign : he had several heart attacks,and,due to the crisis in the East,his replacement could no longer be delayed

3)At the outbreak of WWI,there were some 6600 aristocratic officers= 30 % of the total

5)There was no plan B available,because there was no such plan that could have the same results of plan A,if this succeeded.May I remember that the Allies also had no plan B,if in august 1944,Overlord had failed .

6)Proof for your claim that the simple soldiers despised the officers ?

The WM did not come from the SA.

Proof that German officers crossed the trenches with maps and plans ?

[Alixanther]

Nitpicking at the irrelevant details, as usual.

AGAIN, his "replacement" with Adolf Hitler himself does not compute to any normal situation when your average sick commander faces replacement. His illness had nothing to do with it. IF HE WAS SO SICK, WHY DID HE STAY IN COMMAND WITHOUT FINDING A PROPER REPLACEMENT? Was he the suicidal type?

I was talking about generals and high ranking officers, was I not? How many peasants did you find amongst them (during WW1)? The number of them is already scarce and your percentages offer no relevant input relative to my expression (a handful).

Yes, there is proof, all you need is to read around. However, simple logic is plenty enough tell everybody that the officer corps was the prisoner of the high opinion about Adolf Hitler of their troops. If that wasn't the case, they could have ousted Hitler from office at any given time. It's elementary, please don't make absurd statements. It would not have been the first time when the Junckers would seize military and political power in Prussia / Germany.

Same with traitors: the attack at Kursk started with a Russian counter-artillery fire so precise that no spy could have given such hints, unless German officers themselves crossed the trenches with the operation plans. It's well documented (the counter-artillery barrage and the Russian aerial bombardment), it's only logical. Next time you'll ask me for proof you hit the door, when your nose is swollen up.

[BDV]

May I remember that the Allies also had no plan B,if in august 1944,Overlord had failed.

Do you have proof for that?

Also,
That's like saying that the Germans had no plans if AGN attack failed. Overlord was just a part of the Wally effort. The effort in Italy and the bomber offensive and the Battle of Atlantic were what?! Toasted cheese?!

Barbarossa was the ONLY pressure front on the Soviets.

P.S.

If Speer is to be believed, :roll: some of the German apparatchicks started "considering" strategic bombing against Soviet target in Spring 1943!

[BDV]

I don't think so.

In a gedankenexperiment where Soviet Russia and the Axis forces duke it out, without much outside interference, it makes sense to adopt a methodical, relatively slow paced campaign where the successive soviet defensive lines are ground to dust by the finest 155 mm and 194 mm designs of Monsieur le Colonel Filloux, campaign punctuated by the occassional armored dash. Such campaign would undoubtedly be able to maintain a 4-6:1 casualty exchange ratio of Axis forces with RKKA (with less than 2/3 of Axis casualties Herrenvolk, on account of auxiliaries and turncoat use) well into late 1943, and would never run into the logistical difficulties of 1941 and 1942.

However, here ljadw's point becomes very relevant. If Soviets manage to retreat in strength, in addition to their own industries, they will be furnished with the finest wares US and UK economies can provide them. So it is key for the Axis attacker to try to prevent this from happening.

This calls (IMO) for (1) a kitchen-sink attack. None of "LW will continue locking horns with RAF, KM will focus on England, and western conquests will be safeguarded" nonsense.
(2) Planning and preparation (minimal pre-July 1941, but in full swing in August 1941) for failure to decisively defeat the Bolshevik State by Fall 1941.

A smaller Barbarossa could have achieved a better casualty ratio than historical, and not hurt the German economy as much. But Schicklgruber, Hirohito, and Benito were contending with a trio that could match 'em blow for blow in bloodshed (FDR, Churchill, and Stalin). So playing it cute (not that it was tried by the Axis), would not do it.

[Leutnant Von Historian]

Wait, what does average Wehrmacht soldiers think about Hitler " he is a good general"? Aren't a lot of so called aristocrats like Rundstedt are well respected by his men ( which is the reason he is called back to military service again and again). Aren't a lot of military disaster were caused by Hitler' blunder. While most German Generals strategies prove to be right?

[BDV]

It's 50 50. Good alternating with bad, both on Fuhrer side and underling side.

[steverodgers801]

Hitler attacked Moscow in November because he was assured by Von Bock that Moscow could be taken. Hitler attacked Kursk because he was advised by some of his generals it was achievable. Hitler was right about many things, he just had no sense of what was possible or reasonable

[Leutnant Von Historian]

Well, it seems that if hos generals suggest an offensive (whether in the air, sea, or land) that seems to be very advantageous, he will approved it. While if his general suggest a retreat ( however small and advantageous it is) he will decline.

[Cult Icon]

The top generals, and their strategies were largely a failure on the eastern front. A constant source of failure was underestimating the ability of the RKKA.

While most German Generals strategies prove to be right?

Hitler knew that he could not authorize retreats to everybody. And his goal was to win the war, and this would entail taking territory & not giving it all back. He was also not alone; he had his OKW although his opinion was king.

A common statement he made to the generals (like Manstein) was that they only see what is going on in their army group or armies, but not the entire front. In the post war, these same generals complain that they were not allowed to retreat, but the advantages of not retreating are conveniently ignored. Even the much maligned 'fester platz' and the non-relief of Stalingrad had significant uses (tying up large numbers of soviet forces) that must be taken into account.

[Boby]

While if his general suggest a retreat ( however small and advantageous it is) he will decline.

Hitler ordered many retreats after 1942.

[steverodgers801]

The reason the generals did not know what was going on elsewhere is that Hitler forbad the sharing of info to any one that did not have to know what was going on. It was also Hitler's method of ruling that only he had all the facts, thus people could not argue with him

[bronk7]

attacking Russia after signing a NON-AGGRESSION pact??? no way Russia is going negotiate with Germany!!! and Russia was just too big to conquer ..no, it would not have worked.....

[steverodgers801]

Again if a full campaign failed to beat the Soviets how would a smaller sized attack succeed???. The problem with the Manstein approach of allowing attacks and then reacting is exactling what happened in Bagration. The Germans guessed wrong and as a result AGC was destroyed. Oh by the way the US did have a plan B for France it was called anvil. In a worse case scenario they could have shipped reinforcements to there.

[ljadw]

Oh by the way the US did have a plan B for France it was called anvil. In a worse case scenario they could have shipped reinforcements to there.

This is not correct :Anvil was conceived as an addition of Sledgehammer,and,should originally have been executed in june .
Anvil was not a plan B:if in august Overlord had been blocked and the allies were still at the position of 6 june,what could they do ?It would be to late to ship reinforcements to NA and than to transport them to the South of France .Besides,it is more than doubtfull that the ports of NA and the South of France could have supplied a bigger Anvil force .