"Hitler got it right for Normandy 1944"

[sandeepmukherjee196]

[Split from "Was Hitler really incompetent as the Supreme Commander"]

Readers can also profitably follow David Downing's : Devil's Virtuosos, German Generals at War 1940-45. Hitler did in fact have strong Fingerspitzengefuhl...uncanny gut level instinct. The number of times he escaped assassination by last minute changes in schedule.. his getting it right on vital military matters in many instances.. which defied logic. Even for Normandy he had got it right. Only by that time he had lost his elan and didnt have the guts to follow his instincts !

His last stand fanaticism only came as a result of the failure and vacillation in front of Moscow on the part of his Generals and things which followed.

Ciao
Sandeep

[Graeme Sydney]

Readers can also profitably follow David Downing's : Devil's Virtuosos, German Generals at War 1940-45. Hitler did in fact have strong Fingerspitzengefuhl...uncanny gut level instinct. The number of times he escaped assassination by last minute changes in schedule.. his getting it right on vital military matters in many instances.. which defied logic. Even for Normandy he had got it right. Only by that time he had lost his elan and didnt have the guts to follow his instincts !

His last stand fanaticism only came as a result of the failure and vacillation in front of Moscow on the part of his Generals and things which followed.

"Hitler did in fact have strong Fingerspitzengefuhl...uncanny gut level instinct." Wow, that Nazi secret weapon Fingerspitzengefuhl - they were so close, so unlucky :roll: .

Have you ever wondered why military colleges around the world tech Military Science and universities teach history based on research.

"The number of times he escaped assassination by last minute changes in schedule.. his getting it right on vital military matters in many instances.. which defied logic." Most certainly wasn't based on rational logic - its called paranoia. And the number of times he may have got it right was far unweighted by the number of critical times he got is absolutely irreversible wrong.

"Even for Normandy he had got it right." Prey tell. You are the first I have ever heard say that. Most bag him out for indecisiveness, dividing the command structure, not delegating and then sleeping through the most critical stage of the most critical battle that the Reich faced.But of course without Fingerspitzengefuhl, elan or guts there was nothing Germany or anyone could do in front of overwhelming firepower, overwhelming material and determine leadership and men who knew through study just how to apply it to maximum effect.

[ljadw]

Hitler was not sleeping through the most critical stage of the most critical battle that the Reich faced

[Erwinn]

Like if he didn't slept, he could have prevented it?

By the time German panzers reach the beaches, Allies were already gained bridgeheads and with naval support, they've would been decimated. It was Rommel's fairy dream.

[doogal]

He may have guessed that the Allies were going to land in Normandy but he did not act on it, he compromised btwn Rommels idea to defend the beaches and keeping a armoured force in reserve: imo though that in this instance he was dammed in he did and dammed if he didn't:
Without proper air cover neither course in retrospect is very inviting.
He undoubtedly had some coup de o`eil but it needed to be supported by thorough military training and operational sense or a body of inter service professional soldiers who give sound advice, which Hitler would only listen to (if he had such a body) if it suited his own ideas:
And he was asleep when the Normandy landings began and many of his generals in Normandy where away from there posts but that in itself does not make him incompetent: His decision to launch an armoured drive on Mortain following Cobra was pretty disastrous: (I am not sure who if any one supported this)
There are many decisions which now look ill judged and rather badly thought out but at the time the situation would have appeared quite differently:
I still think though his basic inability to provide (prior to 1939) a coherent strategic plan for winning a European conflict (apart from consistently attacking countries) provides the bench mark for this question: He started a war and had only the vaguest of ideas as to what he would do next and when:

[krichter33]

There are many decisions which now look ill judged and rather badly thought out but at the time the situation would have appeared quite differently:
:

Those are what I like to call "hindsight mistakes." Many generals are "guilty" of it, and then are criticized in modern times for not knowing better...

[sandeepmukherjee196]

"Hitler did in fact have strong Fingerspitzengefuhl...uncanny gut level instinct." Wow, that Nazi secret weapon Fingerspitzengefuhl - they were so close, so unlucky :roll: .

Have you ever wondered why military colleges around the world tech Military Science and universities teach history based on research.

"The number of times he escaped assassination by last minute changes in schedule.. his getting it right on vital military matters in many instances.. which defied logic." Most certainly wasn't based on rational logic - its called paranoia. And the number of times he may have got it right was far unweighted by the number of critical times he got is absolutely irreversible wrong.

"Even for Normandy he had got it right." Prey tell. You are the first I have ever heard say that. Most bag him out for indecisiveness, dividing the command structure, not delegating and then sleeping through the most critical stage of the most critical battle that the Reich faced.But of course without Fingerspitzengefuhl, elan or guts there was nothing Germany or anyone could do in front of overwhelming firepower, overwhelming material and determine leadership and men who knew through study just how to apply it to maximum effect.

[*] Hitler's fingerspitzengefuhl, like Rommel's, has been discussed too many times,far and wide, over the decades, to merit any further space over here now.

[*] Military colleges, even the best, sometimes cant teach that extra zing that makes the difference between a competent commander and a brilliant commander. Sometimes the products are pretty ordinary. A string of British Generals produced by Sandhurst led and performed rather insipidly dring the early years of WW I. The German 'military colleges' produced both Manstein and Halder. One a brilliant and imaginative strategist, the other an ordinary pen pusher.

[*] If Hitler had paranoia then its pretty strange that he should surround himself, and tolerate with ample delegation, characters like Canaris and Halder. His 'paranoia' didnt stop him from making himself vulnerable to someone like Roehm till he became a real menace . It was only after July 20, '44 that his paranoia started manifesting itself.. not surprisingly perhaps.

[*] If you read more about Normandy and its backdrop, you will hear others apart from me, talk about Hitler predicting that the invasion would come at Normandy, when the common wisdom indicated the Pas de Calais.
He is expected to sleep sometime, after working late into the night. It was GenObrst Jodl who didnt want to wake him up, when told of the initial Normandy reports.
Where delegation is concerned, this myth about Hitler is doing the rounds since after the war. Delegate what to whom? The OB West, FeldMrshll Rundstedt made it clear to the press as early as the fall of '43 that the beaches wont be defended seriously since " we Germans don't believe in the tired old Maginot concept".
Guderian was all for holding the panzers back far from the beaches with visions of one powerful Pz Dv throwing the Anglo-Americans back into the sea by itself.
Rommel the prima donna ( male version) won't listen to anyone else on anything. He would also choose to make himself absent from his command for conjugal facilities at home, for celebrating Lucy's b'day! And his Chief of staff wont see it fit to inform him pronto when told that the attack is imminent! Gen Speidel (COS, Army Group B), wont even take the basic step of alerting his formations when told that the invasion is to be expected any time now ( the radio intercept issue is too well known for mention here).

So on that fateful day what didn't Hitler delegate to whom?

Ciao
Sandeep

[sandeepmukherjee196]

He may have guessed that the Allies were going to land in Normandy but he did not act on it, he compromised btwn Rommels idea to defend the beaches and keeping a armoured force in reserve: imo though that in this instance he was dammed in he did and dammed if he didn't:
Without proper air cover neither course in retrospect is very inviting.
He undoubtedly had some coup de o`eil but it needed to be supported by thorough military training and operational sense or a body of inter service professional soldiers who give sound advice, which Hitler would only listen to (if he had such a body) if it suited his own ideas:
And he was asleep when the Normandy landings began and many of his generals in Normandy where away from there posts but that in itself does not make him incompetent: His decision to launch an armoured drive on Mortain following Cobra was pretty disastrous: (I am not sure who if any one supported this)
There are many decisions which now look ill judged and rather badly thought out but at the time the situation would have appeared quite differently:
I still think though his basic inability to provide (prior to 1939) a coherent strategic plan for winning a European conflict (apart from consistently attacking countries) provides the bench mark for this question: He started a war and had only the vaguest of ideas as to what he would do next and when:

Hi doogal...Like I had said in my post, by the summer of '44, Hitler had lost his elan and couldnt muster enough conviction and gumption to follow his instincts any more. The climate and environment in the German military hierarchy had become too vitiated and complex by that time. Trust was low, one failure after another, people at each other's throats.

Even without air supremacy, the beaches could perhaps been defended as per Rommel's plan. It needed the Pz Divs to be within striking distance of the beaches like 21st Pz was. It further required clarity and unity of command. The lack of the same made the 21st waste vital hours going to and fro before actually arriving at the strike zone.

If the intelligence coup on the night of 5-6 June was acted upon seriously. If Rommel was himself present at his HQ during those fateful hours. If he had the panzers under him from the start. The outcome could have been different. These are not too much to ask for normally .. are they?

Vital intelligence should be taken seriously? The Military commander should be available to take command decisions? Vital resources ( Pz Dv) should be under the command of the local commander ( Army Grp B) when required?

There is this concept of the "Golden Hours" in emergency medicine..cardiac arrests and such like. Proper intervention in that span of time often saves lives. Later it becomes too late.

Ciao
Sandeep

[doogal]

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote Even without air supremacy, the beaches could perhaps been defended as per Rommel's plan

While I agree that having armoured divisions close enough to interdict an amphibious landing would hinder and possibly stall the creation of a bridge head, I believe that the Allies air power and naval striking power used in direct and other targeted fire would have been to much for the armoured components to be visible and achieve the concentration needed to "throw them back in the sea".

I think what would have happened is that a shallower bridgehead would have been created with Allies losses in the assaulting divisions greatly increased.
The only way this was viable was if massive reserves could then be fed into operations: Never the less a far harder fight.

[Michael Kenny]

The Allies landed 1,000 tanks on D-Day.

[doogal]

It was a well planned hard fought operation: Nazi Germanys deficiencies cannot detract from that:

[sandeepmukherjee196]

The Allies landed 1,000 tanks on D-Day.

Which allied tank units / formations landed in Normandy on D Day please ? I know about the 7th Armoured, under the XXX corps in Dempsey's 2nd Army in the 21st Army Group. But couldn't find any in the US Army ORBAT given below for 6th and 7th :

(dday-overlord.com/eng/american_forces.htm)

This list identifies Army units that were awarded assault landing credit for the Normandy invasion,6 and 7 June 1944. It includes all units except for platoons and detachments that were a part of larger organizations and is based on the following War Department and Department of the Army General Orders: WD GO 70, 1945; WD GO 75, 1945; WD GO 116, 1946; DA GO 23, 1947; DA GO 72, 1948; DA GO 6, 1950; DA GO 37, 1950; DA GO 32, 1953; and DA GO 28 1956.

1st Infantry Division

HHC, 1st Infantry Division
16th Infantry
18th Infantry
26th Infantry
HHB, 1st Division Artillery
5th Field Artillery Battalion
7th Field Artillery Battalion
32d Field Artillery Battalion
33d Field Artillery Battalion
1st Signal Company
701st Ordnance Light Maintenance Company
1st Quartermaster Company
1st Reconnaissance Troop
1st Engineer Combat Battalion
1st Medical Battalion
1st Counter Intelligence Corps Detachment
1st Military Police Platoon
1st Infantry Division Band
Headquarters, Special Troops, 1st Infantry Division

4th Infantry Div

HHC, 1st Infantry Division
16th Infantry
18th Infantry
26th Infantry
HHB, 1st Division Artillery
5th Field Artillery Battalion
7th Field Artillery Battalion
32d Field Artillery Battalion
33d Field Artillery Battalion
1st Signal Company
701st Ordnance Light Maintenance Company
1st Quartermaster Company
1st Reconnaissance Troop
1st Engineer Combat Battalion
1st Medical Battalion
1st Counter Intelligence Corps Detachment
1st Military Police Platoon
1st Infantry Division Band
Headquarters, Special Troops, 1st Infantry Division

29th Infantry Div

HHC, 29th Infantry Division
115th Infantry
116th Infantry
175th Infantry
HHB, 29th Division Artillery
110th Field Artillery Battalion
111th Field Artillery Battalion
224th Field Artillery Battalion
227th Field Artillery Battalion
29th Signal Company
729th Ordnance Light Maintenance Company
29th Quartermaster Company
29th Reconnaissance Troop
121st Engineer Combat Battalion
104th Medical Battalion
29th Counter Intelligence Corps Detachment
29th Military Police Platoon
29th Infantry Division Band
Headquarters, Special Troops, 29th Infantry Division

90th Infantry Div
HHC, 90th Infantry Division
357th Infantry
358th Infantry
359th Infantry
HHB, 90th Division Artillery
343d Field Artillery Battalion
344th Field Artillery Battalion
345th Field Artillery Battalion
915th Field Artillery Battalion
90th Signal Company
790th Ordnance Light Maintenance Company
90th Quartermaster Company
90th Reconnaissance Troop
315th Engineer Battalion
315th Medical Battalion
90th Counter Intelligence Corps Detachment
90th Military Police Platoon
90th Infantry Division Band
Headquarters, Special Troops, 90th Infantry Division

82d Airborne Div

HHC, 82d Airborne Division
325th Glider Infantry
505th Parachute Infantry
HHB, 82d Airborne Division Artillery
319th Glider Field Artillery Battalion
320th Glider Field Artillery Battalion
456th Parachute Field Artillery Battalion
80th Airborne Antiaircraft Artillery Battalion
82d Airborne Signal Company
782d Airborne Ordnance Maintenance Company
407th Airborne Quartermaster Company
307th Airborne Engineer Battalion
307th Airborne Medical Company
Military Police Platoon, 82d AirborneDivision
507th Parachute Infantry
Company A and B, 507th Military Police Battalion



101st Airborne Div

HHC, 101st Airborne Division
327th Glider Infantry
401st Glider Infantry
502d Parachute Infantry
HHB, 101st Airborne Division Artillery
321st Glider Field Artillery Battalion
907th Glider Field Artillery Battalion
377th Parachute Field Artillery Battalion
81st Airborne Antiaircraft Artillery Battalion
101st Airborne Signal Company
801st Airborne Ordnance Company
426th Airborne Quartermaster Company
326th Airborne Engineer Battalion
326th Airborne Medical Company
101st Counter Intelligence Corps Detachment
Military Police Platoon, 101st Airborne Division
HHC, 1st Engineer Special Brigade
HHC, First Army
Headquarters, Special Troops, First Army
2d Ranger Infantry Battalion
HHC, 3d Armored Group
3d Auxiliary Surgical Group (18 teams)
4th Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron, Mechanized
HHC, V Corps
HHB, V Corps Artillery
HHC, 5th Engineer Special Brigade
5th Ranger Infantry Battalion
HHC, 6th Armored Group
HHC, 6th Engineer Special Brigade
Order of Battle Team No.6 (Provisional)
HHC, VII Corps
HHB, VII Corps Artillery
Military Police Platoon, VII Corps
9th Infantry
Photographic Interpreter Team No.10 (Provisional)
HHB, 11th Antiaircraft Artillery Group
Prisoner of War Interrogation Team No.11 (Provisional)
11th Port Company
13th Field Hospital
15th Ordnance Bomb Disposal Squad
HHB, 16th Antiaircraft Artillery Group
Hqs, 17th Field Artillery Observation Battalion
HHB, 18th Antiaircraft Artillery Group
20th Engineer Combat Battalion
23d Ordnance Bomb Disposal Squad
24th Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron, Mechanized
26th Ordnance Bomb Disposal Squad
30th Chemical Decontamination Company
Photographic Interpreter Team No.32 (Provisional)
33d Chemical Decontamination Company
35th Signal Construction Battalion
37th Engineer Combat Battalion
38th Engineer General Service Regiment (less Band)
42d Field Hospital
47th Ordnance Bomb Disposal Squad
49th Engineer Combat Battalion
HHD, 50th Medical Battalion
50th Ordnance Company
50th Signal Battalion
56th Signal Battalion
58th Armored Field Artillery Battalion
HHD, 61st Medical Battalion
62d Armored Field Artillery Battalion
65th Armored Field Artillery Battalion
70th Tank Battalion
81st Chemical Battalion
87th Chemical Battalion
97th Quartermaster Company
HHD, 100th Ordnance Ammunition Battalion
102d Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron, Mechanized
HHT, 102d Cavalry Group, Mechanized
HHB, 109th Antiaircraft Artillery Group
110th Antiaircraft Artillery Gun Battalion
112nd Engineer Combat Battalion
116th Antiaircraft Artillery Gun Battalion
Troop B, 125th Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron, Mechanized
HHD, 131st Quartermaster Battalion
146th Engineer Combat Battalion
147th Engineer Combat Battalion
149th Engineer Combat Battalion
161st Ordnance Platoon
165th Signal Photographic Company
184th Port Company
185th Port Company
186th Field Artillery Battalion
186th Port Company
187th Field Artillery Battalion
187th Port Company
190th Field Artillery Battalion
Hqs, 190th Field Artillery Group
HHD, 191st Ordnance Battalion
197th Antiaircraft Artillery Automatic Weapons Battalion
200th Field Artillery Battalion
Company A, 203d Quartermaster Gas Supply Battalion
205th Counter Intelligence Corps Detachment (Provisional)
207th Counter Intelligence Corps Detachment (Provisional)
208th Medical Dispensary, Aviation
210th Military Police Company
215th Signal Depot Company

I cant seem to locate tank units large enough to add upto 1000 vehicles.
Ciao
Sandeep

[Michael Kenny]

Just off the top of my head 8th, 27th,& 2nd Canadian Armoured Brigades. 3 in total. An Armoured Brigade is the tank strength of an Armoured Division. 79th Armoured Division also landed a good number of specialised tanks which were gun tanks.
A check in Zetterling reveals 70,741,743,746,749 Tank Bns landed on the US beaches and that the total of tanks landed on D-Day is just shy of 1500!

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Just off the top of my head 8th, 27th,& 2nd Canadian Armoured Brigades. 3 in total. 79th Armoured Division also landed a good number of specialised tanks which were also gun tanks.
A check in Zetterling reveals 70,741,743,746,749 Tank Bns landed on the US beaches and that the total of tanks landed on D-Day is just shy of 1500!

The Commonwealth ORBAT: ( same source as quoted earlier for the US ORBAT)
This list identifies British and Canadian army units that were awarded assault landing and airborne operations credit for the Normandy invasion, June 6 and 7, 1944.
79th Armored Division

30th Armored brigade
22nd Heavy Cavalry
1st Lothians and Border House
2nd Territorial Cavalry Division - Westminster devils
141st RAC Regiment
1st Tanks Brigade
11th RTR Battalion
42nd RTR Battalion
49th RTR Battalion
1st Assault RE Brigade
5th Assault RE Regiment
6th Assault RE Regiment
42nd Assault RE Regiment
79th Transmission Regiment
1st Canadian Armored Regiment

1st Corps
Inn of Court RAC Regiment
62nd Anti-tank Regiment
102nd Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment
9th Cartography RA Regiment
1st Engineering Corps
1st Transmission Corps

30th Corps
11th Armored Vehicles Regiment
73rd Anti-Tank Regiment
27th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment
4th Cartography RA Regiment
30th Engineering Corps
30 Transmission Corps

3rd Infantry Division

8th Brigade
1st Batalion, Suffolk Regiment
2nd Batalion, East Yorshire Regiment
1st Batallion, South Lancashire Regiment
9th Brigade
2nd Batallion, Lincolnshire Regiment
1st Batallion, King's own Scottish borderers
2nd Batallion, Royal Ulster Rifles
185th Brigade
2nd Batallion, Royal Warwickshire Regiment
1st Batallion, Royal Norfolk Regiment
2nd Batallion, King's Shropshire Light Infantry
Troupes regroupées en division
3rd RAC Recon Regiment
3rd Engineering Regiment
3rd Transmission Regiment
7th Artillery Regiment
33rd Artillery Regiment
76th Artillery Regiment
20th Anti-Tanks Regiment
92nd Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment
2nd Batallion, Middlesex Regiment

6th Airborne Division
3rd Parachutists Brigade
8th Parachutists Batallion
9th Parachutists Batallion
1st Canadian Parachutists Batallion
5th Parachutists Brigade
7th Parachutists Batallion
12nd Parachutists Batallion
13th Parachutists Batallion
6th Airborne Brigade
12nd Batallion, Devonshire Regiment
2nd Batallion, Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry
1st Batallion, Royal Ulster Rifles
6th Airborne Armored RAC Reco Regiment
6th Airborne Engineering Regiment
53rd Airborne Light Regiment
6th Airborne Transmission Regiment


50th Northumbrian Division

69th Brigade
5th Batallion, East Yorkshire Regiment
6th Batallion, Green Howards
7th Batallion, Green Howards
151st Brigade
6th Batallion, Durham Liht Infantry
8th Batallion, Durham Liht Infantry
9th Batallion, Durham Liht Infantry
231st Brigade
2nd Batallion, Devonshire Regiment
1st Battalion, Hampshire Regiment
1st Batallion, Dorsetshire Regiment
61st RAC Reco Regiment
50th Engineering Regiment
50th Transmission Regiment
74th Regiment
90th Regiment
124th Regiment
102nd Anti-Tanks Regiment
25th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment
2nd Batallion, Cheshire Regiment
3rd Canadian Division
7th Brigade
Royal Winnipeg
Regina Regiment
1st Batallion Canadian Scottish Regiment
8th Brigade
Chasseurs de la Reine
Regiment de la Chaudière
North Shore (New Brunswick) Regiment
9th Brigade
Highland Light Infantry
Stormont Highlander
Dundas Highlander
Glengarry Highlander
North Nova Scotia Highlander
Troupes regroupées en division
17th Duke of York's own Armored
12nd Regiment
13th Regiment
14th Regiment
3rd Regiment Anti-Tanks, Royal Artillery
Ottawa's Cameron Highlanders, Royal Artillery

Commandos
1st Brigade, Special Service
3rd Commandos
4th Commandos
6th Commandos
45th Royal Marine Commandos

Independent Brigades
27th Armored Brigade
13th King's own Armored
18th King's own Armored
1st East Riding Territorial Cavalry Division
Staffordshire Territorial Cavalry Division
8th Armored Brigade
4th Heavy Royal Guards Cavalry
7th Heavy Royal Guards Cavalry
24th Spears
Nottinghamshire Territorial Cavalry Division
12nd Batallion, King's own Armored Corps
2nd Canadian Armored Brigade
6th Armored Regiment
10th Armored Regiment, Fort Garry Horse
27th Armored Regiment, Sherbrooke

Please note that these formations and units disembarked on the 6th and 7th in the totality of the allied sectors and beaches. How many tanks were actually available to counter attack any German thrust (at the point of impact) against the beaches on the morning / afternoon/ early evening of the 6th? Those were the golden hours as per Rommel's theory.

What if there was a counter thurst at Omaha when it mattered? What if the FJ attacking the vital Sainte Mere Eglise village had armour backing when it mattered? What if the 12th SS was available for attack against the commonwealth landings on the 6th?

[Michael Kenny]

My list was just for the 6th. Zetterling' s total for 6th and 7th is 1,850.
Any German tanks trying to reach the beaches were going to be very roughly handled. I would say lucky for them they were safely tucked away in the rear.
It is a source of puzzlement how it is taken as a given a German Unit just has to turn up to be assured of victory. Given how 12th SS were swatted when they tried frontal attacks when they arrived they should consider themselves lucky they were out of reach on the 6th.

I saw a lot of wierd 'transliterations' on the site you linked.

27th Armoured Brigade is:

13th/18th Royal Hussars (13/18H)
1st East Riding Yeomanry (ERY)
The Staffordshire Yeomanry (Staffs Yeo)

And not:

13th King's own Armored
18th King's own Armored
1st East Riding Territorial Cavalry Division
Staffordshire Territorial Cavalry Division



8th Armoured Brigade

4th/7th Royal Dragoon Guards (4/7 DG)
24th Lancers (24L)
The Nottinghamshire Yeomanry (Sherwood Rangers)

Is not:

4th Heavy Royal Guards Cavalry
7th Heavy Royal Guards Cavalry
24th Spears
Nottinghamshire Territorial Cavalry Division




Other Regimental names are just as comical:

2nd Territorial Cavalry Division - Westminster devils should be 2nd County of London Yeomanry (Westminster Dragoons)