Treaty of Versailles

[black96lt4c4]

Did Germany have legitimate complaints after the treaty? ie... Danzig, the Saar?

[SpicyJuan]

Oh yes they did. The biggest problem was the treaty itself, as many German's thought they were winning (due to propaganda and the fact that the German army got to the Marne again in 1918), and then their government signed a treaty that completely destroyed their country! If there was any part of the treaty that was completely unfair, it was Danzig. Giving Poland a corridor to the sea was a must, and was fair as much of West Prussia was Polish, but Danzig was around 90% German, and was relegated to being a "Free City" in name, but in reality a Polish puppet. IMO Versailles was not nearly as unfair as the Treaty of Saint-Germain-en-Laye.

NOTE: Doesn't this thread belong in the WW1 section?

[JAG13]

1) Alsace had a sizable German population, which is why it was taken from the French.

2) Danzig.

3) Prohibition of having an army or navy.

4) Huge indemnity.

5) Prohibition of absorbing Austria.

6) Demilitarization of the Ruhr.

7) Territories ceded to Poland had a relevant German population.

8) Loss of colonies.

9) Basically ruining the leading country in Europe if not the world.

[pugsville]

No point in having a corridor to the sea if there is no port. Perhaps there should have been stuff for building of a Polish port and the return of Danzig. Danzig was self governing and indeed elected Nazis to run Danzig.

German was well and truly beaten. The German people's perception of things does change the facts they were whipped.

"Legitimate complaints" treaties signed after wars are generally unfair, the victors do tend to have the upper hand in negotiations even if they ar not simply dictated.the longer more prolonged the war often the harsher the treaty. Fairness and "legitimacy" of complaints is a pretty subjective thing.

Germany was relatively unscathed by ww1 and the loss of territory was not huge significant. It did not lose much important. And almost all was majority inhabited by non germans. The German colonies were pretty pitiful and a drain on the state. Germany was not ruined. France had huge amounts of war damage ( a lot of it done by the retreating Germans in the last days of the war) , owned more money and had much heavily per capita deaths, invalids,and pension costs.

[ChrisDR68]

If, like me you consider Germany as chiefly responsible for WWI then no the German feelings of grievance over the Versailles treaty is not justified.

Fundamentally I think the principal German grievance was about losing a war they thought they should have won. The Versailles treaty was therefore used as an excuse to feel hard done by.

Was it perfect?

Of course not.

With the situation in Europe in 1919 no peace treaty could ever be perfect. There were way too many conflicting interests between countries and more importantly between ethnic groups.

Overall though it left the principal nation in the centre of Europe (Germany) intact and left it free to re-arm and re-equip itself once a suitably bold government and leader was in place who then used the Versailles treaty as the main reason for this re-arming (to right the wrongs of the treaty etc.).

When looked on in this way you could argue the treaty was nowhere near harsh enough on Germany.

[Patches]

If, like me you consider Germany as chiefly responsible for WWI then no the German feelings of grievance over the Versailles treaty is not justified.

I doubt that this was the perception of a great many Germans at the time though.

Additional considerations (not mentioned in this thread yet) involving the Treaty of Versailles are the reparation payments, the resulting hyperinflation and the subsequent occupation of the Ruhr that the Germans had to suffer through. On top of everything else this provided ground fertile enough for the Nazis to take advantage of, which they certainly did.

[JAG13]

If, like me you consider Germany as chiefly responsible for WWI then no the German feelings of grievance over the Versailles treaty is not justified.

I doubt that this was the perception of a great many Germans at the time though.

Not only Germans and not only then.

Additional considerations (not mentioned in this thread yet) involving the Treaty of Versailles are the reparation payments, the resulting hyperinflation and the subsequent occupation of the Ruhr that the Germans had to suffer through. On top of everything else this provided ground fertile enough for the Nazis to take advantage of, which they certainly did.

They were crippling and a powerful reminder of the injustice of Versailles for decades to come, so when some corporal said they wouldnt be paying anymore he became very popular...

[SpicyJuan]

No point in having a corridor to the sea if there is no port. Perhaps there should have been stuff for building of a Polish port and the return of Danzig. Danzig was self governing and indeed elected Nazis to run Danzig.

Ever heard of Gdynia/Gdingen?

German was well and truly beaten. The German people's perception of things does change the facts they were whipped.

Is that why the German military was still in France when they signed? Not to mention that everyone was completely exhausted by the war?

[Ironmachine]

German was well and truly beaten.

Is that why the German military was still in France when they signed?

No, that why they signed when the German military was still in France.

Not to mention that everyone was completely exhausted by the war?

(Not) all countries were exhausted by the war, but some countries were more exhausted than others...

As for the original question, well, the Germans signed, didn't they? (and for some here, they signed even if they were not defeated). And then, legitimacy is many times in the eye of the beholder; I'm quite sure that Brennus of the Senones would have had a pair of words to say to those Germans complaining about the Treaty of Versailles.

[SpicyJuan]

(Not) all countries were exhausted by the war, but some countries were more exhausted than others...

France and the UK were, the only notable exception was the USA.

As for the original question, well, the Germans signed, didn't they?

No the German government signed without addressing the German people, it's not hard to see why an entire country feels like they got stabbed in the back by their government for signing a treaty that wrecked their country while they thought they were winning the war.

[JAG13]

(Not) all countries were exhausted by the war, but some countries were more exhausted than others...

France and the UK were, the only notable exception was the USA.

Why notable? They were barely in it... and the president that worked constantly to get them into it ended up a joke and o hated that ensured his party would suffer the worst defeat of their history in the next election. Kind of happens when you have to incarcerate 20.000 for opposing the war.

Contrary to WW2 when the US population had been well indoctrinated, the thousands going to Canada did it not to enlist, but to dodge the draft...

[SpicyJuan]

(Not) all countries were exhausted by the war, but some countries were more exhausted than others...

France and the UK were, the only notable exception was the USA.

Why notable? They were barely in it... and the president that worked constantly to get them into it ended up a joke and o hated that ensured his party would suffer the worst defeat of their history in the next election. Kind of happens when you have to incarcerate 20.000 for opposing the war.

Contrary to WW2 when the US population had been well indoctrinated, the thousands going to Canada did it not to enlist, but to dodge the draft...

Well because there were a plethora of other minor nations that joined the Entente, which were barely notable, and thanks for that, I didn't know just how unpopular the war was in the US.

[black96lt4c4]

The veterans weren't very happy after the war. The Bonus Army marched on Washington DC in 1932 demanding cash payment for their service certificates. General MacArthur chased them off and burnt their belongings. It was handled terribly.

[JAG13]

(Not) all countries were exhausted by the war, but some countries were more exhausted than others...

France and the UK were, the only notable exception was the USA.

Why notable? They were barely in it... and the president that worked constantly to get them into it ended up a joke and o hated that ensured his party would suffer the worst defeat of their history in the next election. Kind of happens when you have to incarcerate 20.000 for opposing the war.

Contrary to WW2 when the US population had been well indoctrinated, the thousands going to Canada did it not to enlist, but to dodge the draft...

Well because there were a plethora of other minor nations that joined the Entente, which were barely notable, and thanks for that, I didn't know just how unpopular the war was in the US.

Not that unpopular, after all almost 80.000 people volunteered for the war... I think Vietnam was more popular volunteer wise, but then again, the US had been under indoctrination for a much longer period by then.

[Ironmachine]

No the German government signed without addressing the German people, it's not hard to see why an entire country feels like they got stabbed in the back by their government for signing a treaty that wrecked their country while they thought they were winning the war.

That, even if true (and it is a very big if), has nothing to do with the legitimacy of the signing. Either the German government was legitimated (that is, had the right) to sign or it wasn't, and whether the German people considered that they were winning the war at the time or not does not change the question.