How did the Germans last over three years once Barbarossa failed?

[ML59]

Because the official German army casualty figures for 1944 on the East were

KIA : 271000

WIA : 1.160000

MIA : 698000

Thus : A ratio of 1 KIA to 4 WIA

As usual, you're comparing apples with oranges. You cannot determine the ratio of KIA:WIA if you don't put into the calculation also MIA, something that you cannot do if you don't have, as a minimum, figures about POW in the same period. Your assumption is pointless, but anybody can tell you definitively the ratio was not 1:4!

[paspartoo]

That is true however his work has been criticized by people who have researched the German archives. I posted one such critique. Ljdaw has also posted inconsistencies from his own book.

People are free to form their own conclusions.

About freedom of opinions I'm the first one who stated it. About Overmans critics, again this doesn't prove anything unless there a serious review of his work by other historians/researchers that can prove he's factually wrong. I'm not aware about anything like that, on the contrary his work, widely adversed, for example, in Germany by the refugees associations, has been accepted by the German historical community as being much more balanced that previous estimates about 1945 losses that were, more or less, thrown in the air. Do not forget also the Federal Burial Service: they have found and identified, so far, more than 2.700.000 bodies of German soldiers that died in the East and many, many more are known to be still buried there because, due to budget and practical reasons, only war cemeteries with more than 50 bodies have been researched and registered, so far. Every year, still now, several thousands of German soldiers bodies are found and transferred in larger cemeteries. But my post is getting too long.............

Yes it is. You should have said 'thanks for the pdf i'll read it and get back to you'. So now stop posting, go read it, understand Overmans argument, understand the authors counterarguments and then reach your own conclusions. This is getting annoying...

[ljadw]

for 1941 :KIA:167000 WIA :600000 MIA :34000

for 1942 :KIA : 233000 WIA :841000 MIA :54000

for 1943 :KIA :235000 WIA :920000 MIA :324000

The total rough figures for 1941 are : 830000 ,for 1942 : 1.130000 for 1943 : 1.500.000 and these figures are accepted by all serious historians .

Overmans OTOH gives impossible DEAD figures for 1941 of 302000,for 1942:507000,for 1943 :701000,for 1944 :1.233000.

If these figures were correct, the Red Army would have been in Berlin in 1942 .

507000 dead in 1942 for a total loss figure of 1.130000 is out of the question .the same for 1233000 for a total of 2130000 in 1944.

If Overmans is right,all the others (including the authorative Germany and WWII ) are wrong .

[ljadw]

Because the official German army casualty figures for 1944 on the East were

KIA : 271000

WIA : 1.160000

MIA : 698000

Thus : A ratio of 1 KIA to 4 WIA

As usual, you're comparing apples with oranges. You cannot determine the ratio of KIA:WIA if you don't put into the calculation also MIA, something that you cannot do if you don't have, as a minimum, figures about POW in the same period. Your assumption is pointless, but anybody can tell you definitively the ratio was not 1:4!

NO : we know the number of KIA and we know the number of WIA,that's all we need to know the ratio .MIA (there were no figures of German POW's in the East) are not KIA,neither are they WIA .

We also know the number of MIA,and POW are not MIA .

[ljadw]

About the 1/4 ratio between KIA and WIA:

the Army losses for may/june 1940 were :
KIA :26455

WIA :111640

MIA :16659

Thus : a 1/4 ratio .

[ML59]

ljadw, those figures were corrected later in the war by the OKW itself. I don't want to rely only on my memory , I'll try to dig out some documents; I have in my mind a figure of about 60.000 dead in the whole campaign, maybe somebody can help us.

[ML59]

[
This is getting annoying...

Totally agree.

[stg 44]

ljadw, those figures were corrected later in the war by the OKW itself. I don't want to rely only on my memory , I'll try to dig out some documents; I have in my mind a figure of about 60.000 dead in the whole campaign, maybe somebody can help us.

If you're talking about France the death toll was about 49k after corrections.

[stg 44]

for 1941 :KIA:167000 WIA :600000 MIA :34000

for 1942 :KIA : 233000 WIA :841000 MIA :54000

for 1943 :KIA :235000 WIA :920000 MIA :324000

The total rough figures for 1941 are : 830000 ,for 1942 : 1.130000 for 1943 : 1.500.000 and these figures are accepted by all serious historians .

Overmans OTOH gives impossible DEAD figures for 1941 of 302000,for 1942:507000,for 1943 :701000,for 1944 :1.233000.

If these figures were correct, the Red Army would have been in Berlin in 1942 .

507000 dead in 1942 for a total loss figure of 1.130000 is out of the question .the same for 1233000 for a total of 2130000 in 1944.

If Overmans is right,all the others (including the authorative Germany and WWII ) are wrong .

Well after WW1 there were major corrections of war time reports that were published in 1934 in the 3rd volume of the sanitätsbericht that put the death toll at 2.1 million, rather than the 1.8 million originally reported (and even lower in some cases IIRC) and that was in much less difficult reporting situations where the military didn't collapse at the end of the war or face major encirclement battles like in WW2.

[ljadw]

ljadw, those figures were corrected later in the war by the OKW itself. I don't want to rely only on my memory , I'll try to dig out some documents; I have in my mind a figure of about 60.000 dead in the whole campaign, maybe somebody can help us.

1) I was writing about the army losses (LW and KM not included)

2) That the number of dead (not KIA) later was increasing,does not change the ratio between KIA and WIA .In may/june and later,a number of bodies of dead German soldiers were discovered,but,in most of the cases, it was impossible to know how they died: KIA ? DOW ? died of sickness ? In december 1940 a Stuka commander died of wounds occurred in may ,but he cn not be classified as KIA.Others died from accidents and sickness .

3) A number of the 16659 MIA were later known as POW

4) The total number of DEAD in may /june 1940 (LW and KM included) was some 54000.

[ljadw]

From WW2 Stats :

WM losses 10 may-30 june 1940

Army : KIA : 26455 /MIA 16659

KM: KIA :121 / MIA : 168 (Norway excluded)

LW : KIA : 1722 /MIA : 2034

Total : KIA : 28298 /MIA:18852


This is without those who died of wounds, of accidents and sickness .

[ljadw]

for 1941 :KIA:167000 WIA :600000 MIA :34000

for 1942 :KIA : 233000 WIA :841000 MIA :54000

for 1943 :KIA :235000 WIA :920000 MIA :324000

The total rough figures for 1941 are : 830000 ,for 1942 : 1.130000 for 1943 : 1.500.000 and these figures are accepted by all serious historians .

Overmans OTOH gives impossible DEAD figures for 1941 of 302000,for 1942:507000,for 1943 :701000,for 1944 :1.233000.

If these figures were correct, the Red Army would have been in Berlin in 1942 .

507000 dead in 1942 for a total loss figure of 1.130000 is out of the question .the same for 1233000 for a total of 2130000 in 1944.

If Overmans is right,all the others (including the authorative Germany and WWII ) are wrong .

Well after WW1 there were major corrections of war time reports that were published in 1934 in the 3rd volume of the sanitätsbericht that put the death toll at 2.1 million, rather than the 1.8 million originally reported (and even lower in some cases IIRC) and that was in much less difficult reporting situations where the military didn't collapse at the end of the war or face major encirclement battles like in WW2.

I know, BUT these corrections included soldiers who died/ were found back AFTER 11 november 1918 ,while the initial reports were restricted to the period of august 1914-november 1918 .
IMHO,some one who died on 12 november 1918 (whatever the causes may be) should not be included in the figures of war deaths.

[stg 44]

A lot of MIA Germans were found to have died during the campaign during capture or after the war due to mistreatment.

[Michate]

About freedom of opinions I'm the first one who stated it. About Overmans critics, again this doesn't prove anything unless there a serious review of his work by other historians/researchers that can prove he's factually wrong. I'm not aware about anything like that, on the contrary his work, widely adversed, for example, in Germany by the refugees associations, has been accepted by the German historical community as being much more balanced that previous estimates about 1945 losses that were, more or less, thrown in the air. Do not forget also the Federal Burial Service: they have found and identified, so far, more than 2.700.000 bodies of German soldiers that died in the East and many, many more are known to be still buried there because, due to budget and practical reasons, only war cemeteries with more than 50 bodies have been researched and registered, so far. Every year, still now, several thousands of German soldiers bodies are found and transferred in larger cemeteries. But my post is getting too long.............

1. Zetterling has shown that Overmans is wrong in some particular points he has made, for example Overmans claim that the German strength documents for 1944 are inconsistent. I have the same documents that Zetterling relied on and they back him up. You don't have to be a "historian" to conclude this, being able to read German and having done some reading of the relevant documents suffices, as a some of Overmans' reading errors there are quite obvious (not to say silly).

2. I have also looked at quite a number of the loss reports Overmans references too, for instance in relation to his points they are inconsistent. From that I can say that Overmans sometimes pays insufficient care to what they refer to (e.g. mistaking soldiers KIA for all dead, and so on).

From that it seems to me Overmans started with an idée fixe and paid insufficient attention to what might contradict it.

3. It is wrong to say that the German historical community has accepted Overmans' results and conclusions in toto, as for instance, some of the historians at MGFA (German military history research office) have uttered some reservations. They also continue to use reported casualty figures.
This forum's former member Qvist, who researched the German casualty system for years, and who had a personal meeting with Overmans where they discussed losses, also shared some reservations.

4. Camparison of Overmans' figures to figures of soldiers reported KIA is useless, as the figure of soldiers reported MIA also actually died during the war.
A comparison of Overmans' death figures for the Eastern front to a preliminary caluclation of the number of dead soldiers from the reporting system itself, factoring in some additional factors, such as the usual rate of wounded soldiers that later died in hospitals, or the number of German soldiers reported in Soviet captivity, shows that till autumn 1943 Overmans' figures exceed them by just 10%, IOW the reporting system was quite accurate. For the end of 1944 the discrepancy was larger, roughly 25%, pointing to growing reporting problems. One has to factor in, however, that the later in the war you come, the more Overmans' method is prone to misjudging postwar casualties as war casualties (his method by default errs on giving deaths of missing soldiers too early).
For 1945 the reported figures are indeed useless for arriving at the overall picture, as the reporting system broke down at least in part and was not corrected, as the figures for various armies prove. For others, preferably in quieter front sectors, like Courland, it should still have some value.

5. Where do you have that number of 2,7 million dead soldiers identified in the East from? The web page of the Volksbund (http://www.volksbund.de/volksbund.html) says they have in their custody in sum 2,7 million graves in all countries, including Western Europe and North Africa. BTW, as the Volksbund web site says, this may also include soldiers that died in WW1, and even some that died in the Prussian-Danish, Prussain-Austrian and Prussian-French wars in 1864-71. The (informal) figures I have read say 2.2-2.3 million dead soldiers resting in Eastern countries.

6. Loss figures are tricky for other armies as well. I would not take Krivosheev's figures for 1941, or his overall loss balance sheets for the whoe war without reservation, for example (just compare for figures given by Mikhalev). Even for the US army during the Ardennes battle, there is a surprising discrepancy of casualty figures, as shown in Christer Bergstrom's recent book.

[ML59]

I have read figures of about 3,3 millions bodies found in former Warsaw Pact territories (including former Prussia and DDR, of course) out of which about 2,2 were positively identified. I'll try to dig out the source.