If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
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ChrisDR68
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#16

Post by ChrisDR68 » 22 Mar 2016, 22:46

Up to June 1940 the war had gone perfectly for Hitler and Germany. At that time Germany's only active enemy was the UK and her empire. It was also at this time that Hitler's thoughts turned towards invading the Soviet Union thus accepting the war on two fronts scenario that doomed imperial Germany in WWI.

Hitler needed to keep focus at this point. That meant concentrating on forcing the UK out of the war which would have secured his western flank. The only way to do that would be to invade the British Isles. U-boats alone wouldn't be enough. To that end spend the autumn, winter and spring of 1940/41 building the landing craft, the transport aircraft, the u-boats and anti-shipping aircraft in preparation for Operation Sealion in May 1941.

Once the operation was launched and a bridgehead is secured in the Kent area use all the force at the disposal of the wehrmacht to fend off the inevitable intervention of the Royal Navy while a port is secured and repaired on the British mainland.

After much heavy fighting and large losses on both sides the Germans capture London and spread out over southern England as per the original plan. Once the south has been secured negotiations are opened similar to what happened in France about leaving the northern part of the UK unoccupied and free to administer the empire. The remnants of the Royal Navy would be allowed to sail to Canada as part of the armistice agreement.

By September 1941 Hitler would be master of Europe and his thoughts could turn to Operation Barbarossa and the inevitable showdown with Stalin. A tentative launch date of May 1942 is set for the invasion of Soviet Russia.

Paul Lakowski
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#17

Post by Paul Lakowski » 23 Mar 2016, 05:19

AJFFM wrote:Easy, zombie Nazis!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEuMVZOEssU

Simply awesome!


Paul Lakowski
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#18

Post by Paul Lakowski » 23 Mar 2016, 05:29

Invading the UK would be out of the question with out a more substantial warship fleet to escort and protect any invasion fleet. It would take years to do this and could not go unnoticed by the British.

Sejanus
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#19

Post by Sejanus » 23 Mar 2016, 06:19

Question: If you could travel back in time to help Hitler win the war [?].

Answer: I would not.

Perhaps if Hitler had died (natural causes? assassination?) before the invasion of Poland, and Göring had taken over as the head of state, there would have been no war in the first place? Maybe the NS state would have even managed to continue its existence to the present day. "What if" speculation ad infinitum. :milwink:

nota
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#20

Post by nota » 23 Mar 2016, 23:57

sealion

tell japan they have to be a real allied power
and send their fleet to help
Italy also

Paul Lakowski
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#21

Post by Paul Lakowski » 24 Mar 2016, 00:49

Sejanus wrote:Question: If you could travel back in time to help Hitler win the war [?].

Answer: I would not.

Perhaps if Hitler had died (natural causes? assassination?) before the invasion of Poland, and Göring had taken over as the head of state, there would have been no war in the first place? Maybe the NS state would have even managed to continue its existence to the present day. "What if" speculation ad infinitum. :milwink:

unfortunately war would have come to Germany with or without Hitler. From the 1920s on plans were being drawn up for rapid mobilization especially in the wake of the Polish invasion of USSR. As the General Staff digested this , they realised that under the ToV rules Germany could not defend itself from a similar style Polish attack directed at Germany. From the late 1920s on steps were taken to rearm the Reichswehr and begin a 15 year expansion of the force structure to enable Germany to be able to defend its self from simultaneous Franco Polish War. This expansion finally includes the recognition that any military action Germany could undertake [Austria/Czeh/Poland] could explode into a wider European war in which Germany would have to have a reasonable plan for winning... or their was no point in launching such an attack in the first place. This expansion thus envisaged a mobilized force similar to the start force Germany had prior to WW-I

ChrisDR68
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#22

Post by ChrisDR68 » 04 Apr 2016, 22:52

Paul Lakowski wrote:Invading the UK would be out of the question with out a more substantial warship fleet to escort and protect any invasion fleet. It would take years to do this and could not go unnoticed by the British.
Not necessarily. The key for the Germans was to have the capability of fending off the Royal Navy should it try to intervene in the invasion.

In the absence of an adequate surface navy torpedo planes could have enabled the Germans to do just that. Here are a few examples of aircraft that the Germans had in production during the 1940/41 period that could have been modified to this end.

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There was already the example in 1940 of the British raid against the Italian fleet at Taranto to show what damage torpedo planes could have against capital ships. In 1941 the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor would be added as well as their sinking of HMS Prince Of Wales and HMS Repulse in the South China Sea.

Paul Lakowski
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#23

Post by Paul Lakowski » 06 Apr 2016, 04:51

LW conducted a secret war-game in 1937 where by they postulated a RAF LW air-war and came to the conclusion that without the Ural Bomber they could not win an air-war over Southern England.

Churchill conceded that nothing could prevent the Germans from landing a sizable force along the south coast, however the RN/RAF could guarantee the supply lines would be interdicted and certainly choked off for long periods. What they may not have anticipated was how well the Germans could defend in place and hold on to territory already captured.

mezsat2
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#24

Post by mezsat2 » 06 Apr 2016, 06:47

It's not a widely held view, but had Hitler simply done nothing to engage the British after Dunkirk (that is, no air or sea attacks) it's hard to see how Churchill could have mounted, much less sustain, the necessary war effort in his country to seriously threaten Germany. Certainly, destruction of the BEF would have been most desirable for Hitler, whether Britain remained in the war or not.

If, in June 40 Hitler immediately focused attention on securing the Balkans in order to launch Barbarossa at the earliest possible date in 41. It's hard to see a widespread outcry in Britain (and certainly not the U.S.) over a German attack on Communist Russia. There's simply no way the U.S. becomes involved in the European conflict under these circumstances and any meager British effort would likely simply wither away in it's impotence over time.

Now, then, the question becomes whether or not Germany could have ultimately defeated the Soviet Union. Application of additional forces (especially air) squandered in North Africa and over the Atlantic and Britain may have tipped the scales. Certainly, even a minor effort by Japan to tie down significant Red Army forces in the East might have made an enormous difference all out of proportion to its actual commitment.

Paul Lakowski
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#25

Post by Paul Lakowski » 06 Apr 2016, 20:45

So no BoB or U Boat war and Britain would have just faded away?

Surely they would have rebuilt and awaited the time when Germany is deeply entrenched in USSR to return to the continent?

mezsat2
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#26

Post by mezsat2 » 07 Apr 2016, 09:05

Paul Lakowski wrote:So no BoB or U Boat war and Britain would have just faded away?

Surely they would have rebuilt and awaited the time when Germany is deeply entrenched in USSR to return to the continent?
A Russo-German conflict would be over long before the several years Britain would need to assemble a juggernaut capable of liberating Europe alone. No way the Americans become involved.

The possibility would exist with Churchill in charge, but how long would he have been in charge? How much support could he garner amongst his people and government for a bloody invasion of Europe against a Germany not actively waging war against Britain, but engaged in mortal combat with an only a perceived moderately lesser evil in Stalin's Soviet Union?

No doubt, he would have certainly seen the long-term danger of a German victory, but consider the long-term danger the Soviet Union did, in fact, go on to present after the war.

line
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#27

Post by line » 07 Apr 2016, 10:56

I could tell Hitler: give me troops from Italy, Norway, the Baltic States and Yugoslavia, Hungary. Every German soldier must protect Germany. Hitler said: NO.

From the memoirs Guderian.

In view of this situation, I decided to once again ask Hitler to abandon the offensive in Hungary, and to launch an offensive against the still weak flanks wedge Russian, drive them in our defense up to the Oder between Frankfurt an der Oder and Kustrin (Kostrzyn). The offensive was to develop in the south of the district Piritts (Pyzhische) Arnsvalde (Choszczno) and to the north from the border of Glogau (Głogów), Houben (Gubin). By this, I was hoping to strengthen the defense of the capital of the Reich, and in general defense of the country and win the time required for the [569] of the peace talks with the Western powers.
For the success of this operation, it was necessary to quickly withdraw from the Balkans, Italy, Norway, and especially from the Baltic. The plan I proposed to Hitler after his visit to the Japanese ambassador Oshima in early February. All of my suggestions regarding the abandonment of these areas he declined. I started hard to prove, saying in the end, this toughie: "Do not think that I am because of their stubbornness continues to insist on leaving the Baltic. I just do not see any other way for the creation of reserves, and without them we would not be able to defend the capital of the Reich. I try only to Germany! "Hitler shook with anger," How dare you say such things to me? Do you think that I'm not a war for Germany? My whole life - the struggle for the interests of Germany. " The entire left half of his body was shaking like a fever. Seeing the terrible rage Hitler, Goering took me by the arm and led her into the next room, where we were for their own reassurance had a cup of coffee.
Then I had a conversation with Grand Admiral Doenitz, who I almost pleadingly asked to support me on the issue of evacuation of our troops out of these countries, if I reintroduced the proposal. For this purpose, it was possible to find a sufficient number of vessels, if [570] refuse to carry a large part of the material. But it is just this-that Hitler did not want.
When Hitler again summoned me to his office, I again raised his voice for the purification of the Baltic states, causing a new rage in the Führer. He stood with raised fists, and my good chief of staff Tomale dragged me back to the coat-tails of his uniform, fearing among us will melee.
This dramatic scene is not delivered to, for which I have fought - the creation of a reserve of troops stationed in the Baltic.

Gooner1
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#28

Post by Gooner1 » 07 Apr 2016, 14:43

Paul Lakowski wrote:L
Churchill conceded that nothing could prevent the Germans from landing a sizable force along the south coast,
:D Oh yeah, when did he say that then?

Paul Lakowski
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#29

Post by Paul Lakowski » 08 Apr 2016, 07:11

Gooner1 wrote:
Paul Lakowski wrote:L
Churchill conceded that nothing could prevent the Germans from landing a sizable force along the south coast,
:D Oh yeah, when did he say that then?
Vol II "The Second World War-Their finest hour" pp232-234.

First sea lord reports 'it appears probable that a total if some hundred thousand men might reach these shores without being intercepted by naval forces....but maintenance of their supply lines ,unless the German Air Force had overcome both our Air Force and our Navy , seems practically impossible." Pound goes on to detail what German forces could land where from each region and Churchill notes...

"I was content with this estimate....the First Sea Lords memorandum may be taken as a working basis ... " but goes on to agree that the landed forces 'might well double namely, 200,000 men"... concluding that the existing British forces could handle this.

However it should be noted that up until this point all Churchill's previous parliamentary notes mentioned in this volume -declared such an invasion impossible since the German force would be destroyed by the RN & RAF before they reached the shore.

He did have a good imagination.

line
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Re: If you could travel back in time to Help Hitler win the war

#30

Post by line » 08 Apr 2016, 08:03

No one could cope with the Germans, because they had a motorized infantry. Under the guise of armor approached the enemy trenches and destroyed it. The British Army had no such machines

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