WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
Paul Lakowski
Member
Posts: 1441
Joined: 30 Apr 2003, 06:16
Location: Canada

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#31

Post by Paul Lakowski » 06 Nov 2016, 02:06

I have heard them say the wrong side won.

User avatar
Sheldrake
Member
Posts: 3726
Joined: 28 Apr 2013, 18:14
Location: London
Contact:

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#32

Post by Sheldrake » 06 Nov 2016, 17:49

ChristopherPerrien wrote:
BDV wrote:
ChristopherPerrien wrote:Tis ironic and unexpected to hear comments of some remaining WWII vets of the British Army who say they fought for the wrong reason/side/enemy now.

This has nothing to do with the issue discussed in this forum thread.

Actaully it does as it was a reply from the ignorant about NAzi "fanboys/etc." My comment was now there are "fanboys" who were British WWII military veterans. So people should be REAL careful of their flaming comments on such things.

Also my comment reflects the "spirit" that drove such men on both sides at the time. Now given time to reflect and the observations of where their country is now they have changed their minds about such "spirit".It is very interesting to see. Also it is a warning along the lines of "those who cannot remeber the past are condemned to repeat it.

And it reflects in the rather unenlightened post that follow that sound as if they are nothing more than MSM spouted liberal BS about Trump , America First etc. Trump has absolutely no connection to the topic. And as to America First or more accurately US participation in WWII. People who think America was not "at war" with NSDAP run Germany since shortly after its inception obviously know nothing of history. Obviously they have forgotten a man Roosevelt and no nothing or the fully involved commitment of the USA in 1940 (yea FORTY) against the Axis powers.
Who are these British WW2 veterans who are Nazi fanboys? Name one or give me a link to a media report. I spent 10 years working for the Royal British legion, our leading force's charity. I have neither met nor heard of a British Veteran claiming that the wrong side won!

Regarding US participation, you ought to read Dan Pleisch's book. Roosevelt took many measure's against Nazi Germany. However the US was divided. While a high proportion of Americans expected the US to become involved in the war, in 1939 only a minority supported action against Hitler. During 1940-41 that proportion increased. Republicans were less well disposed towards the Democrat FDR.


Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 8251
Joined: 07 May 2002, 20:40
Location: Teesside

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#33

Post by Michael Kenny » 06 Nov 2016, 17:55

Sheldrake wrote:
Who are these British WW2 veterans who are Nazi fanboys?
I suspect this is to do with the '4th Reich/EU' fiction.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23722
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#34

Post by David Thompson » 06 Nov 2016, 22:25

Graeme Sydney -- Please avoid insulting personal remarks when posting.

Graeme Sydney
Member
Posts: 877
Joined: 17 Jul 2005, 16:19
Location: Australia

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#35

Post by Graeme Sydney » 07 Nov 2016, 01:57

ChristopherPerrien wrote:

Actaully it does as it was a reply from the ignorant about NAzi "fanboys/etc." My comment was now there are "fanboys" who were British WWII military veterans. So people should be REAL careful of their flaming comments on such things.

Also my comment reflects the "spirit" that drove such men on both sides at the time. Now given time to reflect and the observations of where their country is now they have changed their minds about such "spirit".It is very interesting to see. Also it is a warning along the lines of "those who cannot remeber the past are condemned to repeat it.

And it reflects in the rather unenlightened post that follow that sound as if they are nothing more than MSM spouted liberal BS about Trump , America First etc. Trump has absolutely no connection to the topic. And as to America First or more accurately US participation in WWII. People who think America was not "at war" with NSDAP run Germany since shortly after its inception obviously know nothing of history. Obviously they have forgotten a man Roosevelt and no nothing or the fully involved commitment of the USA in 1940 (yea FORTY) against the Axis powers.

But back to spirit. My first posting I alluded to the Germans being in their prime in 1939-1941. This was true from a "spirit" and competency viewpoint, the men who stayed in and trained before the war were the best of the best. This could be argued for all sides. Sure materially the Germans were weaker at the beginning of the war but everyone else was as well(except for the Russians IMO).In terms of spirit and competency yea the German forces that went into France were the height of German power. Arguably then if they were still at that level in 42 then the US forces fought them in North Africa. However logistically the Germans were further in the whole everyday after the war started.
[/quote]

"Obviously they have forgotten a man Roosevelt and no nothing or the fully involved commitment of the USA in 1940 (yea FORTY) against the Axis powers."

"However logistically the Germans were further in the whole everyday after the war started"


Eh? Pretty much sums up your argument and reasoning.

User avatar
Don71
Member
Posts: 332
Joined: 30 Jan 2011, 15:43

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#36

Post by Don71 » 07 Nov 2016, 13:36

Graeme Sydney wrote:
Carl Schwamberger wrote: In other words the US cheated by sidestepping the issue of trying to build a better and larger ground combat force & went with air power as its edge.
In other words the USA and the Allies achieved a better and more balanced force, at every level. That is, they were militarily more competent.

I love it when the Nazi fanboys cite chapter and verse to prove this panzer divy or that German Inf divy was so much better, had better tactics, better moral and more firepower but was only beaten because the Allies stood off at 5000 yards and blew the living daylights out of them with endless arty fire. And the poor, poor Germans could not move their reinforcements nor move their tank due to the lack of fuel caused by those nasty allies bombing the crap out of their communications and strategic industrial base.

Come on all you nazi fanboys, historical revisionist and romantics, the whole purpose of war is to marshal ALL of your resources to impose your political will over the opponent. And as Gen Patton said, "The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."
(I would have added, 'by all possible means'.
Coming back to a military view.

Do you realy think that Martin van Creveld is all what you named above, with a book written for the US military?

https://www.amazon.com/Fighting-Power-P ... ting+power

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 8251
Joined: 07 May 2002, 20:40
Location: Teesside

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#37

Post by Michael Kenny » 07 Nov 2016, 13:43

Creveld, Keegan, Hastings etc. All of their time and overtaken by later more balanced appraisals

User avatar
Don71
Member
Posts: 332
Joined: 30 Jan 2011, 15:43

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#38

Post by Don71 » 07 Nov 2016, 14:47

Michael Kenny wrote:Creveld, Keegan, Hastings etc. All of their time and overtaken by later more balanced appraisals
This was not my question!

We can discuss the different viewpoints controversial, but to claim, everybody is a nazi fan boy, if he arguments that german ground units inflicted more damage compare to for example US units, is not a discussion it is the opposite of a discussion.

There a lot of books on the market, from serious people, who claim with sources and arguments, that german ground units were better at a tactical level and inflicted more damager per unit compare to allied units and Red Army units.
So if all this people with their books are all nazi fan boys and we are not anymore able to discuss this controversial with arguments and not with insults like nazi fan boy, historical revisionist and romantics, we are on the best way back to war in the future.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23722
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#39

Post by David Thompson » 07 Nov 2016, 16:30

An assortment of off-topic posts, dealing with present-day politics, were removed pursuant to forum policy - DT.

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 8251
Joined: 07 May 2002, 20:40
Location: Teesside

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#40

Post by Michael Kenny » 07 Nov 2016, 16:55

Don71 wrote:There a lot of books on the market, from serious people, who claim with sources and arguments, that german ground units were better at a tactical level and inflicted more damager per unit compare to allied units and Red Army units.
And there are many authors who dispute this with sources. You might want to define 'damage' because the only way I can see a clear win for Germany in the 'damage' game is if you count people killed. Without doubt Nazi Germany was the No 1 killing machine in WW2 by a long mile.
Don71 wrote: So if all this people with their books are all nazi fan boys and we are not anymore able to discuss this controversial with arguments and not with insults like nazi fan boy, historical revisionist and romantics, we are on the best way back to war in the future.
It is the endless list of excuses that are introduced to explain why the wrong side won that reveals the fanboise mentality. In this thread we can see absurd claims that if only the Allies did not 'cheat' (by using for example better airpower, better navy, better artillery, more ammunition etc) and stuck to a 'one-on -one fight' against German strengths (by lining up in single file and attacking every MG42 head on in an open field?) then Germany would assume her rightful position as an all powerful unbeatable Army. You find the same people in other threads claiming Tiger tanks never got knocked out and they all either ran out of fuel or became trapped inside the burning circles of the 20 Shermans they KO in each engagement. The ' What If ' threads should be renamed 'Ways to make sure Germany Wins WW2' because thats what 95% of the posts really are about.

User avatar
Don71
Member
Posts: 332
Joined: 30 Jan 2011, 15:43

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#41

Post by Don71 » 07 Nov 2016, 19:24

So the french campaign with a victory in 6 weeks, also the victories at the NA campaign and the victories 1941 at the SU with more then 4 Million captived soldies are all nazi fan boy history and were coming from a bad performing Army?

Ok!

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 8251
Joined: 07 May 2002, 20:40
Location: Teesside

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#42

Post by Michael Kenny » 07 Nov 2016, 20:01

Don71 wrote:So the french campaign with a victory in 6 weeks, also the victories at the NA campaign and the victories 1941 at the SU with more then 4 Million captived soldies are all nazi fan boy history and were coming from a bad performing Army?

Ok!
1941? I thought the war ended in 1945 with a total defeat of all the Axis powers?

French 1940 campaign in 6 weeks and 1944 French Campaign in how many weeks?

User avatar
Don71
Member
Posts: 332
Joined: 30 Jan 2011, 15:43

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#43

Post by Don71 » 07 Nov 2016, 20:12

A lot longer then 6 weeks!

fjernsyn49
Member
Posts: 17
Joined: 30 Jun 2008, 21:25

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#44

Post by fjernsyn49 » 07 Nov 2016, 20:25

But the different parts of the Wermacht was not at its prime at the same time.
Kriegsmarine at its prime in 1940, was defeated by Royal Navy in the Norwegian campaign for never to recover to a new prime.

The Luftwaffe at its prime in 1940/41 was defeated by Royal Air Force during Batle of Britain for never to recover to a new prime.

The Ubootflotte at its prime in 1941/42 was defeated by US Fleet and Royal Navy in the Battle of the Atlantic for never to recover to a new prime.

The German Army at its prime in 1941/42 was mainly defeated by the Soviet Red Army during Barbarossa and war in the east to never recover to a new prime. In the North Africa campaign wich is within their prime was another war theatre were they was defeated by US and UK.

The funny thing is that the German Wehrmacht parts at theirs prime could not win, but were defeated by opponents that was not at their prime. Interesting.

Aber
Member
Posts: 1124
Joined: 05 Jan 2010, 22:43

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#45

Post by Aber » 07 Nov 2016, 20:49

Don71 wrote: Do you realy think that Martin van Creveld is all what you named above, with a book written for the US military?

https://www.amazon.com/Fighting-Power-P ... ting+power
The book is an analysis of the differences between the armies; he relies on Dupuy for the estimate of German superiority (and there are known issues with this data).

Locked

Return to “German Strategy & General German Military Discussion”