WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
Stiltzkin
Member
Posts: 1165
Joined: 11 Apr 2016, 13:29
Location: Coruscant

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#61

Post by Stiltzkin » 08 Nov 2016, 20:48

Germany was beaten by 1944. All the Endkampf tales of Wagnerian sacrifice (so dear to the hearts of the believers) were futile and a symptom of mass delusion.
That is not what these numbers are about, I have provided a good analogy (2nd Punic) in my first posts of this thread.
So far you only come up with uninteresting, time wasting comments , I don't see how any of your statements refute the studies, though many lack the capacity to comprehend them.

User avatar
Don71
Member
Posts: 332
Joined: 30 Jan 2011, 15:43

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#62

Post by Don71 » 08 Nov 2016, 20:54

2. The British Air Force beat the best the German Air Force had to offer in 1940 and from 1941 on wards in conjunction with the US Air Force proceeded to devastate the German cities from above in the middle and late war period. The German Air Force was still in its prime in 1942 and the USAF was successful; and
Where and when was the RAF or USAF successful against the Luftwaffe from autum 1940 till autum 1942?
This was the peak time of the Luftwaffe with the Bf 109F and Fw 190 A3, please name the victories and the devastate at this timeline?

The first victory of the RAF after the Battle of Britain was the battle of Al Alamein before was nothing that can be called a victory!
In this 2 years the LW was equal or had the upper hand at NA and over the channel and also the night fighter were successful against the RAF bombing which were only stitches till the end of 1942.
Perhaps it would help to read some sources!

The KM had enough strenghts to control the Norway waters with their convoys and the North Sea till the end of 1943. Also the fight at the channel was open till the beginning of 1944.


Stiltzkin
Member
Posts: 1165
Joined: 11 Apr 2016, 13:29
Location: Coruscant

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#63

Post by Stiltzkin » 08 Nov 2016, 21:06

The British Air Force beat the best the German Air Force had to offer in 1940 and from 1941 on wards in conjunction with the US Air Force proceeded to devastate the German cities from above in the middle and late war period. The German Air Force was still in its prime in 1942 and the USAF was successful; and
You are right, the WAllies did defeat the Luftwaffe, although oil shortages (USSBS) were the true reason for their inability to continue the fight (and training for that matter), however the majority of LW personnel died in the MTO and ETO, considering the Allies heavily invested into air power that was to be expected. I mentioned this in my previous post though.

Total Luftwaffe KIA, since June 41 (Analyzing WWII Eastern Front Battles, Journal of Slavic military studies, table 3)
219,087 of that on Eastern Front 53,469

To this, Britain July- October 1940:

Fighters and Stuka 545
Jagd and Zestörer 675

Losses against Britain 7 October 1940-31 May 1941:
481
Attachments
Fighterlosses.jpg
German-Aircraft-Losses-in-WWII-over-time.gif
German-Aircraft-Losses-in-WWII-over-time.gif (39.81 KiB) Viewed 1232 times
GAF-RAF-AAF-Fighter-Training-Hours.gif
Oil shortages.

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 8272
Joined: 07 May 2002, 20:40
Location: Teesside

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#64

Post by Michael Kenny » 08 Nov 2016, 21:29

Stiltzkin wrote: You are right, the WAllies did defeat the Luftwaffe, although oil shortages (USSBS) were the true reason for their inability to continue the fight (and training for that matter),
Surely the 'superior' Luftwaffe could have shot the inferior Allied Air forces from the sky before they bombed the Oil plants.

Stiltzkin
Member
Posts: 1165
Joined: 11 Apr 2016, 13:29
Location: Coruscant

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#65

Post by Stiltzkin » 08 Nov 2016, 21:34

Surely the 'superior' Luftwaffe could have shot the inferior Allied Air forces from the sky before they bombed the Oil plants.
No the British held Singapore and succeded at Dunkirk and Arnhem, they did not have to rely on Australians, Poles, New Zealanders, Ghurkas, Czechoslovakians, Canadians, Americans, French, in fact Britain defeated Germany singlehandedly during both World Wars, while taking less casualties, silly comments can get silly responses :)
Least, I miss any arguments about the greatness of the German army, the Germans attacked the Allied invasions at Anzio and Normandy. At no point were any of these divisions able to reach the beaches and in Normandy they were unable to even reduce the size of the beachhead. For all the arguments of German Tactical Superiority the German Panzers failed from 1943 onwards in their primary role as an offensive instrument. Furthermore, if they were 30% greater then the 12th SS could have pushed back the Canadian 3rd Division on the 7th of June, yet they failed.
Actually later at Salerno, they almost smashed the Beachhead but weren't aware of how the situation would develop nor could they correctly predict it, but you are already forgetting that the units in Italy were insufficient to succeed in the first place.
Last edited by Stiltzkin on 08 Nov 2016, 21:42, edited 1 time in total.

Graeme Sydney
Member
Posts: 877
Joined: 17 Jul 2005, 16:19
Location: Australia

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#66

Post by Graeme Sydney » 08 Nov 2016, 21:39

Stiltzkin wrote:
This is wrong! Stalin and the SU were informed of operation Barbarossa at detail
That is true, the Soviets had their best units available and were probably more prepared than Poland.
I wrote "Russia; the early Barbarossa victories were misleading and delusional. These victories were as much the result of strategic and operational surprise as they were of any fundamental Russian military weakness. " This is true despite what you have asserted and despite any demonstrated German army efficiency, competence or superiority. The best proof of the surprise is Stalin's reaction; he had a 'do nothing' break down (nervous breakdown?).

The subject is well and truly covered in other threads. It is contentious but what you choose to believe is not important because strategic, operational and tactical surprise was achieved and impacted to give a false and misleading assessment of Russia's strategic military strength.

The other part of the statement, "the early Barbarossa victories were misleading and delusional" , is equally true. Basically, Germany wasn't militarily strong enough and the German Army wasn't overwhelming superior enough to defeat Russia. This was evident as soon as the 'sucker punch' (a.k.a. 'kicking the door in') didn't result in the collapse of Russia. Any hope of victory in the east after that was misleading, delusional and forlorn.

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 8272
Joined: 07 May 2002, 20:40
Location: Teesside

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#67

Post by Michael Kenny » 08 Nov 2016, 21:40

Stiltzkin wrote: No the British held Singapore and succeded at Dunkirk and Arnhem, they did not have to rely on Australians, Poles, New Zealanders, Ghurkas, Czechoslovakians, Canadians, Americans, French, in fact Britain defeated Germany singlehandedly during both World Wars, while taking less casualties, silly comments can get silly responses
I think it more a Freudian slip than a silly answer.
I have no problem allowing that Allied forces got beaten. You wont find me trying to find excuses. I can live with the fact the good guys sometimes lose.
Now why did the Luftwaffe not knock out the Allied air forces whilst it still had all the fuel it needed?

Stiltzkin
Member
Posts: 1165
Joined: 11 Apr 2016, 13:29
Location: Coruscant

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#68

Post by Stiltzkin » 08 Nov 2016, 21:44

You wont find me trying to find excuses. I can live with the fact the good guys sometimes lose.
No, you are just severly biased and enjoy falsifying history.

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 8272
Joined: 07 May 2002, 20:40
Location: Teesside

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#69

Post by Michael Kenny » 08 Nov 2016, 21:47

Stiltzkin wrote: Actually later at Salerno, they almost smashed the Beachhead but weren't aware of how the situation would develop nor could they correctly predict it.
Sounds like Crete 1941.

Stiltzkin
Member
Posts: 1165
Joined: 11 Apr 2016, 13:29
Location: Coruscant

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#70

Post by Stiltzkin » 08 Nov 2016, 21:48

The other part of the statement, "the early Barbarossa victories were misleading and delusional" ,
Yes, the Soviets lost 185 Divisions in a few months, but were able to replace them in time (at least the Rasputitsa gave them some air to breath) and even bring almost 300 new ones to life. That however is not what I was talking about, there is this theory that the Soviet forces were overwhelmed due to surprise or bad preparation, this would be a complete misinterpretation of the initial situation.

User avatar
Don71
Member
Posts: 332
Joined: 30 Jan 2011, 15:43

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#71

Post by Don71 » 08 Nov 2016, 22:05

Graeme Sydney wrote:
Stiltzkin wrote:
This is wrong! Stalin and the SU were informed of operation Barbarossa at detail
That is true, the Soviets had their best units available and were probably more prepared than Poland.
I wrote "Russia; the early Barbarossa victories were misleading and delusional. These victories were as much the result of strategic and operational surprise as they were of any fundamental Russian military weakness. " This is true despite what you have asserted and despite any demonstrated German army efficiency, competence or superiority. The best proof of the surprise is Stalin's reaction; he had a 'do nothing' break down (nervous breakdown?).

The subject is well and truly covered in other threads. It is contentious but what you choose to believe is not important because strategic, operational and tactical surprise was achieved and impacted to give a false and misleading assessment of Russia's strategic military strength.

The other part of the statement, "the early Barbarossa victories were misleading and delusional" , is equally true. Basically, Germany wasn't militarily strong enough and the German Army wasn't overwhelming superior enough to defeat Russia. This was evident as soon as the 'sucker punch' (a.k.a. 'kicking the door in') didn't result in the collapse of Russia. Any hope of victory in the east after that was misleading, delusional and forlorn.

What you are writing is untrue!
Perhaps you should read Glantz or many many other books, which confirmed, that the SU was preparing for Barbarossa since March 1941!
There was no strategic surprise, that's nothing more then a myth, proofed by many sources and authors!
Yes, the Soviets lost 185 Divisions in a few months, but were able to replace them in time (at least the Rasputitsa gave them some air to breath) and even bring almost 300 new ones to life. That however is not what I was talking about, there is this theory that the Soviet forces were overwhelmed due to surprise or bad preparation, this would be a complete misinterpretation of the initial situation.
But only with the truck and food/weed supply from the USA at beginning 1942. Without this two essential supplies, Stalingrad would not be possible, as also all offensive operations of 1943.

Graeme Sydney
Member
Posts: 877
Joined: 17 Jul 2005, 16:19
Location: Australia

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#72

Post by Graeme Sydney » 09 Nov 2016, 00:59

Don71 wrote:

What you are writing is untrue!
Perhaps you should read Glantz or many many other books, which confirmed, that the SU was preparing for Barbarossa since March 1941!
There was no strategic surprise, that's nothing more then a myth, proofed by many sources and authors!
The fact that both sides mistrusted each other and were even resigned to the possibility of war does not mean that Germany didn't achieve strategic and operational surprise.
Last edited by Graeme Sydney on 09 Nov 2016, 01:10, edited 1 time in total.

Graeme Sydney
Member
Posts: 877
Joined: 17 Jul 2005, 16:19
Location: Australia

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#73

Post by Graeme Sydney » 09 Nov 2016, 01:09

Stiltzkin wrote:
The other part of the statement, "the early Barbarossa victories were misleading and delusional" ,
Yes, the Soviets lost 185 Divisions in a few months, but were able to replace them in time (at least the Rasputitsa gave them some air to breath) and even bring almost 300 new ones to life. That however is not what I was talking about, there is this theory that the Soviet forces were overwhelmed due to surprise or bad preparation, this would be a complete misinterpretation of the initial situation.
Go back to my original statement;
"These victories were as much the result of strategic and operational surprise as they were of any fundamental Russian military weakness. "

"as much" means it wasn't exclusively due to surprise, but it was a major factor. But apparently you, and Hitler/Germany in 1941, got drunk on 'victory disease' and it has clouded your judgment ever since.

The German army was not as superior as a superficial reading of the numbers suggest.

Stiltzkin
Member
Posts: 1165
Joined: 11 Apr 2016, 13:29
Location: Coruscant

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#74

Post by Stiltzkin » 09 Nov 2016, 01:33

as much" means it wasn't exclusively due to surprise, but it was a major factor. But apparently you, and Hitler/Germany in 1941, got drunk on 'victory disease' and it has clouded your judgment ever since.
Your comments and yappings are extremely immature and are based on personal opinion, if you have a better methodology, present it, I am eager to see it, you cannot simply dismiss something without disproving it empirically.
To get a better overview of the situation in 1941: Surprise was almost no factor at all.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... 0008430452
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... 8908411797
http://www.jstor.org/stable/260933?seq= ... b_contents
http://www.palgrave.com/la/book/9780312225278
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... ode=fslv20

histan
Member
Posts: 1668
Joined: 14 Jan 2008, 18:22
Location: England

Re: WW2 Did US ever fight Germany when they were in their prime?

#75

Post by histan » 09 Nov 2016, 02:38

The German's certainly believed that the Russians were aware of the German preparations. see this entry from von Bock's diary:
"11.03.1941 Reports from spies in Lithuania speak of major Russian manoeuvres in the Baltic States and claim that these manoeuvres are part of a secret concentration of forces against Germany. Unbelievable! But it is certain that the Russians know of our buildup and are taking countermeasures."

Barbarossa is quoted in NATO planning doctrine as an example of poor strategic planning - a failure to match "Ends", "Ways", and "Means" The "ends" would be determined by the political leadership (Hitler) but I am not sure he gave a clear statement of the "end state" he wished the military to achieve. There was significant confusion and disagreement on the "ways" by which the "end state" would be achieved. Most importantly, the means provided were inadequate, whatever the chosen "ways".

German strategic planning was uncoordinated and incoherent throughout the war but particularly so from 1941 onward.

I am probably not the only person who experiences some form of "cognitive dissonance" when asked to believe that the Germans were "better" than the Western Allies in the Normandy Campaign.
The facts on the ground are clear - in early June 1944 the allies were in England, by early September the allies had crossed the channel, passed through France and were at the German border. Equally, in early June 1944 the Germans were on the channel coast in France and in early September they had retreated through France, were rushing troops to defend the German border, and expressing concern that way into Germany was wide open.
Yet at the same time I am expected to believe that the Germans were "better" (either as soldiers or in warfighting) than the allies.

Looking at the strategic level, it is clear that the allied invasion of Normandy was a classic example of excellent strategic planning - it matched ends, ways, and means, and in fact developed new means specifically so that certain ways could be used. The allies were much better than the Germans at the strategic level.

Similarly, at the operational level the allies developed an operational concept that took account of their strengths and weaknesses, particularly with regard to manpower (morale and casualties) that was remarkably successful. The Germans had two operational concepts that they attempted to use to defeat the landings - both failed. After that they seemed to just "give up" and wait to be defeated.
Nathan Bedford Forrest when asked how he achieved his success is reported to have replied 'M'am I got there first with the most men'. Given that the Germans were first on the battlefield in Normandy it is extremely difficult to understand why they could not produce "the most men". Particularly since all of the allied men, shells, bullets, etc had to supplied from England, moved across the Channel and landed on the beaches. A major German operational and logistical failure.

Which leaves only the tactical level. All of the German attempts at deliberate attacks by their panzer divisions failed to achieve their objectives. Some attacks by allied armoured divisions failed to achieve their objectives but some did achieve their objectives. Since none of the German deliberate attacks were successful they could not stop the invasion or drive the allies back into the sea. Enough of the allied deliberate attacks were successful to ensure that allied operational level objectives were achieved and so the allied campaign was successful.

The above is not an attempt to dismiss the analysis of individual battles and the much misunderstood modelling construct CEV. It is an attempt to place it in context. There is an interesting discussion to be had about the modelling work and areas of investigation relating to CEV - the impact of collective performance, collective training, combat experience, etc. Allied divisions with no combat experience against German divisions with combat experience. Poor collective training of allied formations. Skills fade experienced by US infantry replacements during their transit time from the US to joining units in Europe, etc, etc.

Regards

John

Locked

Return to “German Strategy & General German Military Discussion”