At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
Post Reply
User avatar
BDV
Member
Posts: 3704
Joined: 10 Apr 2009, 17:11

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#691

Post by BDV » 03 Nov 2014, 16:01

ChrisDR68 wrote:Why this obsession with the Dunkirk evacuation?
... I wager because is a favourite focus of the lowlifes who were for GROFAZ (1935-1945), before they were against GROFAZ (post 1945) like "120 wristwatches" Manstein*,** and Heinz "Lutz, Ostwalt?!? Never heard of!" Guderian.

Conveniently overlooking some glaring issues, namely Sponneck stuck in Holland, Rommel stymmied at Lille (foreshadowing both Dunkirk and Tobruq), and the lack of readiness and apropriatedness of the panzers for the work ahead (marshland-cum-built up area) these latter-day Munchausens make this into some epic blunder. In fact, the outcome was about as good as Wehrmacht could hope for: Belgian force surrender, and removal of anglo-french forces from the battle at hand at minimal (except for LW's losses) cost for Wehrmacht.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
*visionary developer of the Sturmegeschutz konzept :roll:
**who lost Ukraine Ukraine just as fast as Runstedt, Kleist, and the Auxiliaries conquered it 8O
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

Alixanther
Member
Posts: 411
Joined: 04 Oct 2003, 05:26
Location: Romania

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#692

Post by Alixanther » 03 Nov 2014, 23:11

ChrisDR68 wrote:Why this obsession with the Dunkirk evacuation?
Not to mention France was yet to prove it was defeated. There were still British forces in France outside the Dunkerque pocket which might have opted to fight at the time. Hitler waged a bet he could create a political split against his enemies by using a military tool - which he grew unusually acustomed to later in the war. As a matter of fact, he rejoiced when Britain retreated their forces from theather. That was the evidence the Anglo-French Alliance was in shambles. Never think of Hitler as a strategist. He's a politician through and through.


checkov
Member
Posts: 78
Joined: 25 Sep 2011, 01:44

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#693

Post by checkov » 04 Nov 2014, 05:25

So much to refute, so little time.
First on the sentiment that Dunkirk wasn't really a big deal---sour grapes

Any population of millions can only contribute a small percentage of their population to be quality troops. A loss of 2-3 hundred thousands would have decimated the British army remaining , recruiting and training would have taken a long time. If I follow your logic that a loss of a mere 200,000 British troops is nothing because that had a population of 48 million. Why then did not the British invade Normandy in 1944 with an army of 3 or 4 or even 10 million troops? They invaded with a force of about 1/2 million combat troops, another 1/2 million or so American ( by July 4) and that was after years of total mobilization and infusion of troops from the states and all corners of the British empire. The truth is in 1940 , 200,000 was an enormous force for the British army at that time. The blow to morale would have been heavy. Churchill lost his command in WW1 at Gallipoli for far less.

Then with a complete victory in France in 1940 who is to say their would have been war with the USSR and USA ( especially the later)? ( seeing an apparently invincible Germany in 1941 they the USSR might have made concessions to Hitlers demand for territory in the east, in the USA the pro German movements might have flourished and ...who knows?????)


Secondly on the idea that The German high command gave the stop order, it must have been a mortally pressing reason ---fiddlesticks!

Hitler did order the halt...why is a blurt of revisionism given so much credit over first hand accounts of officers in charge like Guderian, Blumentritt, Rommel, Manstein, Luck and on and on...I just don't understand that.

I invite you to read the following: On May 24th Hitler in person visited Runsted at the GHQ of army group A in Charleville . They discussed the "heady" German progress and like earlier visits it was a surprise. The german staff actually hid bottles of Cointreau in the filing cabinets because Hitler disapproved. Hitler then met with Runsted and they reviewed the situation on maps. "Then Hitler acting partly on Runsteds urging , ordered the Panzers to halt on the Aa canal ( which I have shown in previous posts had in fact already been bridged by at least one armored kampfgroup)". Runsted then gave the order officially which Hitler had given to him verbally. As I have argued before Runsted was an old man and I don't think he had kept up with the new warfare being used.



Thirdly on the idea that I Am I obsessed with Dunkirk? ---I suppose when the topic is the early war in the west yes.

German had won a great victory and at least partially squandered it on letting hundred of thousands of veteran troops escape to be rearmed with British and American lend lease equipment and used again in N Africa and Europe and Asia.

Allied mobile forces were destroyed, British air was disorganized because they had been displaced from their bases in france, French morale was low. On the german side adequate roads existed to allow entrance into the harbor according to german officers at the scene the British were too disorganized to defend those road hence the marshy grounds were IRRELEVANT . Sufficient armor and mobile infantry forces existed in the vicinity of Dunkirk to have driven away the unorganized Defenders, German infantry or not being involved.




I will end my part of this discussion with the question; Just who was going to stop the Germans from taking Dunkirk? Consider this snippet of conversation between Churchill and Gamelin.


"It was at this meeting that he asked General Gamelin “Où est la masse de manœuvre?” (“Where are your reserves?”)—a military phrase which Churchill probably remembered from Monsieur Moriarty’s Army Class at Harrow.16 The answer was “Aucune” (“None”)."


Tanks for reading my post,
I Enjoy our discussions.

Alixanther
Member
Posts: 411
Joined: 04 Oct 2003, 05:26
Location: Romania

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#694

Post by Alixanther » 04 Nov 2014, 13:59

We can surely say today that the Germans could have gone all the way in. However, in those times the victory over France was not quite assured. Hitler had no way of knowing how many British troops were encircled in the Dunkerque pocket. As I said, there were other British forces outside the pocket. He had no way of knowing if France had or hadn't any more reserves. For him it was paramount to break France and drive Britain off the continent, either or both of these. He said (an approximate translation) :"I could not help rejoice when I heard that the enemy decided to launch a full-out attack along the front. They fell into the trap! We were inspired to let the attack start at Luttich. We made them believe we're following the old Schlieffen plan. This way, two days after reaching Abbeville, we were able to swing our offensive to the South-West."

If you think you can conveniently neutralize a large chunk of the BEF on Dunkerque then yes, this is a military blunder, a terrible mistake. However, if you don't know France has no reserves whatsoever, the other way may be prudent still. Don't forget that France forces, reserves or not reserves, kept on fighting long after BEF evacuation from Dunkerque. Who was then able to say "forget the French, they're routed anyway, let's get the British"?

steverodgers801
Member
Posts: 1147
Joined: 13 Aug 2011, 19:02

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#695

Post by steverodgers801 » 04 Nov 2014, 15:50

Again, to consider the idea that the British could snatch so many men from certain captivity was not only an impossible idea for the Germans to grasp, it certainly was not planned and was a brilliant piece of improvisation by the British.

User avatar
BDV
Member
Posts: 3704
Joined: 10 Apr 2009, 17:11

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#696

Post by BDV » 04 Nov 2014, 18:59

Not only did BEF in Flanders neutralize itself, without Germans as much as needing to fire a shot, after the FrancoBritish started pulling out, Belgians up and surrendered. To have the panzers engaged in heavy annihilation battle would have pused back Fall Rot 2, 4, maybe even as much a 6 weeks depending on the exact tide of battle.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

ChrisDR68
Member
Posts: 212
Joined: 13 Oct 2013, 12:16

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#697

Post by ChrisDR68 » 04 Nov 2014, 23:24

checkov wrote:So much to refute, so little time.
First on the sentiment that Dunkirk wasn't really a big deal---sour grapes

Any population of millions can only contribute a small percentage of their population to be quality troops. A loss of 2-3 hundred thousands would have decimated the British army remaining , recruiting and training would have taken a long time. If I follow your logic that a loss of a mere 200,000 British troops is nothing because that had a population of 48 million. Why then did not the British invade Normandy in 1944 with an army of 3 or 4 or even 10 million troops? They invaded with a force of about 1/2 million combat troops, another 1/2 million or so American ( by July 4) and that was after years of total mobilization and infusion of troops from the states and all corners of the British empire. The truth is in 1940 , 200,000 was an enormous force for the British army at that time. The blow to morale would have been heavy. Churchill lost his command in WW1 at Gallipoli for far less.
If I'm reading you correctly it's your opinion that Britain's entire war effort would have been crippled had the 210,000 troops in the Dunkirk pocket been forced to surrender.

I mean... seriously? 8O

panzerman1944
Member
Posts: 3
Joined: 09 Aug 2014, 05:01

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#698

Post by panzerman1944 » 05 Nov 2014, 03:30

I truly believe Hitlers first day of defeat started the day he turned Karl Doenitz down on the 300 submarines he requested to bring Britain to her knees. Had Doenitz received his request Britain would of been starved of her much needed supplies due to massive losses in merchant shipping and be forced to sue for peace.

Germanicus Nero
Banned
Posts: 69
Joined: 23 Oct 2014, 08:27

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#699

Post by Germanicus Nero » 05 Nov 2014, 03:39

At what point did Germany lose the war?

During the pre-planning.

going into a major war like that with a level of raw materials that would only let them fight for so long. The German economy was exactly the same type as Napolean's France; it was geared to a "short war". The Campaign in France was exactly the type of war the economy could handle, and the people. The war in Russia was a type of war that it could'nt handle economically. It sucked in resources that Germany just did not have in abundance. Hitler realised it early on, hence his almost obesessive ideas about conquering areas that could solve the resource problems. Maybe he was a better war leader than the insubordinate and aristocratic generals were willing to believe.

You cannot go to war in the modern period without all these material resources already in place.

So, in summary, they lost the war the moment they decided that production figurs like 1,335 Pzkw-V's was going to be enough.

Napolean said it, Germany should have listened...."God is on the side of the biggest batallions"

glenn239
Member
Posts: 5862
Joined: 29 Apr 2005, 02:20
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#700

Post by glenn239 » 05 Nov 2014, 19:18

At what point did Germany lose the war?

During the pre-planning.


And,

Napolean said it, Germany should have listened...."God is on the side of the biggest batallions"

Which are contradictions, which is it? Did Germany lose the war beforehand, (1939) or did it only lose the war when God favored the other side with the biggest battalions, (1941)?

Germanicus Nero
Banned
Posts: 69
Joined: 23 Oct 2014, 08:27

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#701

Post by Germanicus Nero » 07 Nov 2014, 05:46

The other side was ALWAYS "favoured with the biggest battalions. That was known from the beginning.

Pre planning should have allowed for that somehow. It didn't. The Reich expexted to conquer what it needed as it went along.

Fools.

The great contradiction was going to war with all this firmly in mind. No resources of any worth. No big battalions.

If you believe that big batallions were only a factor in 1941, you're a bigger fool than the Nazi leadership themselves.

glenn239
Member
Posts: 5862
Joined: 29 Apr 2005, 02:20
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#702

Post by glenn239 » 07 Nov 2014, 15:26

I think the logical conclusion from the evidence available is that Germany lost the war in 1941 when the USA and USSR entered it, not in 1939 when the then-existing opposing coalition proved too weak to defeat Germany.

detaf
Member
Posts: 9
Joined: 30 Nov 2014, 11:37
Location: holland

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#703

Post by detaf » 30 Nov 2014, 23:15

Attacking the soviet union with inferior tanks , like panzer 2 and 3 and great deal of army horsedrawn.

User avatar
LWD
Member
Posts: 8618
Joined: 21 Sep 2005, 22:46
Location: Michigan

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#704

Post by LWD » 01 Dec 2014, 01:41

panzerman1944 wrote:I truly believe Hitlers first day of defeat started the day he turned Karl Doenitz down on the 300 submarines he requested to bring Britain to her knees. Had Doenitz received his request Britain would of been starved of her much needed supplies due to massive losses in merchant shipping and be forced to sue for peace.
Got a date for that? If so could they have had the subs in time and what would they have had to sacrifice to do so.

flakbait
Member
Posts: 234
Joined: 22 Oct 2013, 02:37

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#705

Post by flakbait » 01 Dec 2014, 03:27

Believe Doenitz was not only up against "land minded" Hitler and "air minded" Goering but also "big gun ship minded" Raeder, his own immediate superior. As far as 1939, am convinced that ideally Nazi Germany NEEDED that each European "victim" would in turn succumb alone and unsupported to a swift, and brutal Nazi "Blitzkrieg" while their neighbors did nothing but perhaps diplomatically protesting. This would allow a series of easy militarily "cheap" campaigns with no real need to up grade either weapons or systems and without seriously disrupting the German economy; it would also allow Herr Hitler another chance to sign a few more worthless pieces of paper that various European leaders could then proudly boast of to again briefly `reassure` their own populations of "Peace in our time..." It must have been so cruel to Adolf that both France AND Britain would not "play the game" as he NEEDED them to to allow for a cheap easy conquest of Europe and beyond at Nazi Germany`s convienances..

Post Reply

Return to “German Strategy & General German Military Discussion”