Female SS Smoke Troops
Female SS Smoke Troops
Hello
A few weeks ago i saw a documentary on the Berchtensgarden / Obersalzberg. Apparently a smokesystem was developed and would be activated when the Allied bombers came. In that way the whole area would be smoked and it would be difficult to bomb it.
There was a person who stated that after a while the men who operated these smokemachines were replaced by women because the men where needed at the front. The man stated they were female Waffen SS soldiers
To make a long story short: does anyone know about this unit and maybe have photos of this unit or these women?
Thank you in advance for your reaction.
Cheers
A few weeks ago i saw a documentary on the Berchtensgarden / Obersalzberg. Apparently a smokesystem was developed and would be activated when the Allied bombers came. In that way the whole area would be smoked and it would be difficult to bomb it.
There was a person who stated that after a while the men who operated these smokemachines were replaced by women because the men where needed at the front. The man stated they were female Waffen SS soldiers
To make a long story short: does anyone know about this unit and maybe have photos of this unit or these women?
Thank you in advance for your reaction.
Cheers
I have to say that I am by no way an expert in this topic but there certainly were no actual female soldiers in Waffen-SS. Instead, in some special circumstances some female SS-helferinnen might have received combat-related training and were employed in tasks such as this one you described.
Besides SS-helferinnen, also Wehrmacht and Polizei had their own corps of female auxiliaries, sometimes carrying out very physical and dangerous duties such as firefighting, manning searchlights and anti-aircraft installations and acting as air raid wardens.
Besides SS-helferinnen, also Wehrmacht and Polizei had their own corps of female auxiliaries, sometimes carrying out very physical and dangerous duties such as firefighting, manning searchlights and anti-aircraft installations and acting as air raid wardens.
- Heimatschuss
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Hello folks,
here's my bit on this subject. .
The unit was SS-Nebelabteilung [SS fog battalion] 'Obersalzberg'. It had been established in summer 1943 and was crewed by SS men that had only limited combat readiness (i.e. recuperating wounded soldiers and the like).The unit consisted of 3 fog batteries with 3 platoons each. Each platoon had 30 fog machines. They were scattered all over the Berchtesgaden valley. When allied bomber groups reached a distance of less than 30 flight minutes from Obersalzberg the fog battalion was to cover the whole area in a fog screen.
In February 1945 the SS men were replaced by female SS auxiliaries [probably the last course of the SS signals auxiliaries' school] who got a 4 week training course in handling the fog equipment. They were housed in private quarters near the fog machines.
When the Allies attacked Obersalzberg on April 26th,1945 the envisaged fogging didn't work. Various reason for this are claimed:
- alarm arrived too late
- malfunction of fog engines
- mismanagement of the fog engines by the auxiliaries
All information from:
Franz W. Seidler
Frauen zu den Waffen?
2nd ed., Bernard & Graefe Verlag, Bonn, 1998
pp. 185-186
Best regards
Torsten
here's my bit on this subject. .
The unit was SS-Nebelabteilung [SS fog battalion] 'Obersalzberg'. It had been established in summer 1943 and was crewed by SS men that had only limited combat readiness (i.e. recuperating wounded soldiers and the like).The unit consisted of 3 fog batteries with 3 platoons each. Each platoon had 30 fog machines. They were scattered all over the Berchtesgaden valley. When allied bomber groups reached a distance of less than 30 flight minutes from Obersalzberg the fog battalion was to cover the whole area in a fog screen.
In February 1945 the SS men were replaced by female SS auxiliaries [probably the last course of the SS signals auxiliaries' school] who got a 4 week training course in handling the fog equipment. They were housed in private quarters near the fog machines.
When the Allies attacked Obersalzberg on April 26th,1945 the envisaged fogging didn't work. Various reason for this are claimed:
- alarm arrived too late
- malfunction of fog engines
- mismanagement of the fog engines by the auxiliaries
All information from:
Franz W. Seidler
Frauen zu den Waffen?
2nd ed., Bernard & Graefe Verlag, Bonn, 1998
pp. 185-186
Best regards
Torsten
"The Hitler Book" by Eberle et al. mentions the employment of smoke generators at Obersalzberg, but does not mention who manned them. They failed to properly cover Obersalzberg earlier in the war during an alarm a failure that that reportedly infuriated Hitler.Heimatschuss wrote: In February 1945 the SS men were replaced by female SS auxiliaries [probably the last course of the SS signals auxiliaries' school] who got a 4 week training course in handling the fog equipment. They were housed in private quarters near the fog machines.
When the Allies attacked Obersalzberg on April 26th,1945 the envisaged fogging didn't work. Various reason for this are claimed:
- alarm arrived too late
- malfunction of fog engines
- mismanagement of the fog engines by the auxiliaries
Smoke generators are not complicated pieces of equipment and it is difficult to "mismanage" them. More than likely, the failure to cover the site in smoke was the result of unfavorable atmospheric conditions or the alarm came too late.
Penn44
According to Missie Vassiltchikov in her excellent book 'The Berlin Diaries, 1940-45' it was quite common for the alarm to be too late. Quite often the alarms went off long after the bombing had started. Perhaps this is what happened, or it could be a combination of things. Last night on Sky 3 I saw an American film footage of one of the bombing raids at Obersalzberg. It was a sunny day and the view was clear.
I had forgotton about that passage in Seidler's book. Thanks for mentioning it Heimatschuss. I wonder what uniform these ladies were issued? I suppose we may never know.
I had forgotton about that passage in Seidler's book. Thanks for mentioning it Heimatschuss. I wonder what uniform these ladies were issued? I suppose we may never know.
- Heimatschuss
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- Location: Deutschland
Hello,
some more snippets on the SS-Nebelabteilung 'Obersalzberg':
The unit was set up on the 'Kurmark' training center of the SS near Guben (SE Brandenburg) before moving to Berchtesgaden.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Kar ... mark-R.htm
http://www.balsi.de/Weltkrieg/Einheiten ... lzberg.htm
has some more details on their equipment and dislocation in the Berchtesgaden area.
1st battery: Roßfeld - Oberau - Obersalzberg - Kehlstein
2nd. battery: Dietfeld - Maria Gern - Bischofswiesen - Strub - Berchtesgaden
3rd battery: Königssee till Ramsau
Seidler (op.cit., p.192) also cites the recollections of one of the female auxiliaries about the war's end for this unit.
Female SS auxiliaries of the SS fog detachment Obersalzberg fled into the Alps. One of the SS auxiliaries describes her escape this way:
'On May, 4th we received order to gather on Obersalzberg next morning. With regard to the general situation five of us preferred to make rucksacks from our wool blankets, changed our service dresses against civilian clothes, collected food and when dawn of May 5th, 1945 arrived we didn't leave for Obersalzberg but in the direction of Ramsau. On our way we met many groups of German soldiers fleeing to the mountains. A forrester who was walking in the opposite direction led us to a lumberjacks' hut above Lake Hintersee. The next day some SS men appeared there too. Together we started for the higher mountains the next night. The next three weeks we spent isolated in the woods. One day American soldiers found us but we pretended to be lumberjack couples and escaped unscathed.'
Best regards
Torsten
some more snippets on the SS-Nebelabteilung 'Obersalzberg':
The unit was set up on the 'Kurmark' training center of the SS near Guben (SE Brandenburg) before moving to Berchtesgaden.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Kar ... mark-R.htm
http://www.balsi.de/Weltkrieg/Einheiten ... lzberg.htm
has some more details on their equipment and dislocation in the Berchtesgaden area.
1st battery: Roßfeld - Oberau - Obersalzberg - Kehlstein
2nd. battery: Dietfeld - Maria Gern - Bischofswiesen - Strub - Berchtesgaden
3rd battery: Königssee till Ramsau
Seidler (op.cit., p.192) also cites the recollections of one of the female auxiliaries about the war's end for this unit.
Translation:SS-Helferinnen der SS-Nebelabteilung Obersalzberg flohen ins Gebirge. (117) Eine SS-Helferin vom Obersalzberg schildert ihre Flucht so:
„Am 4. Mai bekamen wir den Befehl, uns am anderen Morgen auf dem Qbersalzberg zu versammeln. Wir fünf zogen es aber angesichts der allgemeinen Lage vor, uns aus unseren Wolldecken Rucksäcke zu nähen, unsere Dienstkleidung gegen Zivilkleidung umzutauschen, uns mit Lebensmitteln zu versorgen und im Morgengrauen des 5. Mai 1945 nicht in Richtung Obersalzberg, sondern in Richtung Ramsau aufzubrechen. Unterwegs begegneten wir vielen Gruppen von Landsern, die in die Berge flüchteten. Ein uns entgegenkommender Förster führte uns auf eine Holzfallerhütte oberhalb des Hintersees. Hier fanden sich anderentags auch einige SS-Männer ein. Mit ihnen stiegen wir in der folgenden Nacht höher in die Berge. Die nächsten drei Wochen verbrachten wir untergetaucht in der Waldeinsamkeit. Eines Tages stöberten uns amerikanische Soldaten auf. Wir gaben uns als Holzfallerehepaare aus. Man ließ uns ungeschoren." (118)
Female SS auxiliaries of the SS fog detachment Obersalzberg fled into the Alps. One of the SS auxiliaries describes her escape this way:
'On May, 4th we received order to gather on Obersalzberg next morning. With regard to the general situation five of us preferred to make rucksacks from our wool blankets, changed our service dresses against civilian clothes, collected food and when dawn of May 5th, 1945 arrived we didn't leave for Obersalzberg but in the direction of Ramsau. On our way we met many groups of German soldiers fleeing to the mountains. A forrester who was walking in the opposite direction led us to a lumberjacks' hut above Lake Hintersee. The next day some SS men appeared there too. Together we started for the higher mountains the next night. The next three weeks we spent isolated in the woods. One day American soldiers found us but we pretended to be lumberjack couples and escaped unscathed.'
Best regards
Torsten
Re: Female SS Smoke Troops
Some other information from Seidler (and Dieter Zeigert) about the Nebel Helferinnen and the failure of the smoke protection to prevent Allied bombings at Obersalzberg, from Hitler's Secret Headquarters: The Führer's Wartime Bases, from the Invasion of France to the Berlin Bunker (p. 205):Heimatschuss wrote: When the Allies attacked Obersalzberg on April 26th,1945 the envisaged fogging didn't work. Various reason for this are claimed:
- alarm arrived too late
- malfunction of fog engines
- mismanagement of the fog engines by the auxiliaries
All information from:
Franz W. Seidler
Frauen zu den Waffen?
2nd ed., Bernard & Graefe Verlag, Bonn, 1998
pp. 185-186
So apparently, according to this information, the unit was stood down, leaving the Obersalzberg unconcealed from air raids....On the Obersalzberg in February 1945, female SS auxiliaries were taught how to operate the smoke making apparatus. Himmler's idea that this unit would be better served by "old forestry rangers, lumberjacks, and resident farmers" was not taken up. In the situation conference of 23 March 1945 in Berlin, Luftwaffenadjutant von Below suggested that the smoke unit should be mothballed when Hitler was not in residence on the Obersalzberg, in order to save on acid consumption. Hitler replied, "Yes, but we must be clear that we could lose everything. This is one of the last [FHQ] options we have."
Best,
~Vikki
Re: Female SS Smoke Troops
Fascinating subject and thank you, everyone.8)
Does anyone know of photographs of these female smoke troops?
I would welcome conjecture on what uniform they might wear. Something like a flakhelferin, perhaps? I cannot help but think that skirts and shoes would be highly impractical for such an assignment.
Best to all.8)
Dan
p®ti©
~~~~~
Does anyone know of photographs of these female smoke troops?
I would welcome conjecture on what uniform they might wear. Something like a flakhelferin, perhaps? I cannot help but think that skirts and shoes would be highly impractical for such an assignment.
Best to all.8)
Dan
p®ti©
~~~~~
Re: Female SS Smoke Troops
Hello to all.
MY own knowleadge is that there were ss women, but they wern't classed as soildier's or nor they wern't to fight in ww2 against the Allies.
Germany women where class as child bearing house wifes.
But Russia on the other hand had female troop's that frought in ww2 against the ememy and they were classed as real soildiers.
Feel free to tell me if i got something wrong, i am human. Cheers Guys!
MY own knowleadge is that there were ss women, but they wern't classed as soildier's or nor they wern't to fight in ww2 against the Allies.
Germany women where class as child bearing house wifes.
But Russia on the other hand had female troop's that frought in ww2 against the ememy and they were classed as real soildiers.
Feel free to tell me if i got something wrong, i am human. Cheers Guys!
V = VICTORY
Re:
This is rather peculiar explanations. SOME fog machine breaking down, or mismanaged, may be possible. But not all of them, or even most of them.Heimatschuss wrote:.... Each platoon had 30 fog machines.....
In February 1945 the SS men were replaced by female SS auxiliaries [probably the last course of the SS signals auxiliaries' school] who got a 4 week training course in handling the fog equipment. They were housed in private quarters near the fog machines.
When the Allies attacked Obersalzberg on April 26th,1945 the envisaged fogging didn't work. Various reason for this are claimed:
- alarm arrived too late
- malfunction of fog engines
- mismanagement of the fog engines by the auxiliaries
All information from:
Franz W. Seidler
Frauen zu den Waffen?
2nd ed., Bernard & Graefe Verlag, Bonn, 1998
pp. 185-186
If they did all right two month, why suddenly breakdown or mismanagement en masse??
Other explanations are much more plausible. And others here have given them too.
Question is, if someone thinking perhaps unconciously "as women arent quite capable as men" we dont need to search longer, thus putting blame on them.
Anyway, thus how reliable is this narrative stating these reasons??
- Heimatschuss
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- Location: Deutschland
Re: Female SS Smoke Troops
Hello Dan,
These are actually Luftwaffe-Helferinnen wearing a leather garment officially known as Säureschutzanzug (acid protection suit). A detailed description can be found in Schlicht & Angolia (1999, pp.402). It consisted of a double-breasted black leather jacket, black leather trousers, a leather face mask and long leather gloves. This equipment was worn above the normal uniform. Additionally the women here are wearing rubber overshoes as it seems. [Unfortunately the German edition of Angolia has no reference photo so it took me quite a number of evenings to understand what these dresses are and what the women are actually doing.]
They're gathered around a simple type of fog generator called variously:
- Fassnebelgerät43
- Nebelfassgerät 43
- Nebelsäurefaßgerät 43
or just simply
- Nebelgerät 43
which translates to something like fog acid barrel. [Would be nice if someone would find out the official German name of the thingy.]
It consisted of several parts:
1) steel bottle with compressed air
2) valve with manometer, fixed on the steel bottle tap for controlled release of the compressed air.
3) hose between manometer and the fog acid barrel
4) steel barrel containing 140 litres of fog acid
5) release pipe with round protection shield, the nozzle is on the other side of the shield
(Hampe, 1963, p.356)
The fog auxiliaries gathered around the barrel are equipped with an oil can and various wrenches. The watering can on the right is probably a simple first aid means. Fog acid is very agressive and can cause nasty skin defects. By immediately pouring water on skin parts affected the acid is washed away and damage kept at a low level.
After the steel bottle had been connected to the barrel fogging could start. It was also possible to transfer overpressured air into a fog acid barrel just partially filled and store it there. So it was possible to remove the steel bottle and fill further fog barrels. Dependent on the overpressure and the amounts of compressed air and fog acid
a barrel could operate up to several hours.
Here's another picture of a fog barrel found in the Obersalzberg region from Neul (1997)
I think I may have an answer for your question now. Presumbably they looked like the following ladies:portico wrote:Does anyone know of photographs of these female smoke troops?
I would welcome conjecture on what uniform they might wear. Something like a flakhelferin, perhaps? I cannot help but think that skirts and shoes would be highly impractical for such an assignment.
These are actually Luftwaffe-Helferinnen wearing a leather garment officially known as Säureschutzanzug (acid protection suit). A detailed description can be found in Schlicht & Angolia (1999, pp.402). It consisted of a double-breasted black leather jacket, black leather trousers, a leather face mask and long leather gloves. This equipment was worn above the normal uniform. Additionally the women here are wearing rubber overshoes as it seems. [Unfortunately the German edition of Angolia has no reference photo so it took me quite a number of evenings to understand what these dresses are and what the women are actually doing.]
They're gathered around a simple type of fog generator called variously:
- Fassnebelgerät43
- Nebelfassgerät 43
- Nebelsäurefaßgerät 43
or just simply
- Nebelgerät 43
which translates to something like fog acid barrel. [Would be nice if someone would find out the official German name of the thingy.]
It consisted of several parts:
1) steel bottle with compressed air
2) valve with manometer, fixed on the steel bottle tap for controlled release of the compressed air.
3) hose between manometer and the fog acid barrel
4) steel barrel containing 140 litres of fog acid
5) release pipe with round protection shield, the nozzle is on the other side of the shield
(Hampe, 1963, p.356)
The fog auxiliaries gathered around the barrel are equipped with an oil can and various wrenches. The watering can on the right is probably a simple first aid means. Fog acid is very agressive and can cause nasty skin defects. By immediately pouring water on skin parts affected the acid is washed away and damage kept at a low level.
After the steel bottle had been connected to the barrel fogging could start. It was also possible to transfer overpressured air into a fog acid barrel just partially filled and store it there. So it was possible to remove the steel bottle and fill further fog barrels. Dependent on the overpressure and the amounts of compressed air and fog acid
a barrel could operate up to several hours.
Here's another picture of a fog barrel found in the Obersalzberg region from Neul (1997)
Last edited by Heimatschuss on 30 Sep 2011, 01:22, edited 1 time in total.
- Heimatschuss
- Member
- Posts: 2597
- Joined: 22 May 2006, 23:50
- Location: Deutschland
Re: Female SS Smoke Troops
And here anotherone in use by the SS from an unknown book that is amongst Harry von Gebhard's scans at
https://picasaweb.google.com/freiherrvo ... 4027157330
My Helferinnen group again. The oil can must have something to do with servicing the nozzle but I don't have any details on that.
Various acids or mixtures of acids were used for fogging, the most common seems to have been chlorosulphonic acid. After release chlorosulphonic acid reacts with atmospheric water vapour and is split up into sulphuric and hydrochloric acid. These both are strongly hygroscopic themselves, i.e. they attract water. This increases local atmospheric humidity to the point of saturation upon which fog begins to form. This is often supported by a secondary effect. The developing fog layer causes increased reflection of sunlight thus cooling down the air cushion below the top of the initial fog layer. This results in natural fog forming if atmospheric humidity is very high already. In regions like Western and Northern Germany this is the case most of the year making fogging a very effective tool to conceal air strike targets (Hampe, 1963, p.354, 357).
https://picasaweb.google.com/freiherrvo ... 4027157330
My Helferinnen group again. The oil can must have something to do with servicing the nozzle but I don't have any details on that.
Various acids or mixtures of acids were used for fogging, the most common seems to have been chlorosulphonic acid. After release chlorosulphonic acid reacts with atmospheric water vapour and is split up into sulphuric and hydrochloric acid. These both are strongly hygroscopic themselves, i.e. they attract water. This increases local atmospheric humidity to the point of saturation upon which fog begins to form. This is often supported by a secondary effect. The developing fog layer causes increased reflection of sunlight thus cooling down the air cushion below the top of the initial fog layer. This results in natural fog forming if atmospheric humidity is very high already. In regions like Western and Northern Germany this is the case most of the year making fogging a very effective tool to conceal air strike targets (Hampe, 1963, p.354, 357).
- Heimatschuss
- Member
- Posts: 2597
- Joined: 22 May 2006, 23:50
- Location: Deutschland
Re: Female SS Smoke Troops
Here two pictures of an experimental fogging of the Obersalzberg area from Frank (2004). The upper pic shows the initial phase
and this one the situation a bit later:
Though isolated tactical fogging experiments had been carried out by the Luftschutz-Warndienst [Air Raid Alarm Service) already in the late 1920s interest in fogging as a means of air raid protection remained low for many years.
The so-called 'secondary fogging' described above was discovered only in summer 1939 during trials to conceal a Rhine bridge. But it was another event that sped up development. For the cruise of the 'Bismarck' around the British Isles a fog batallion had been stationed in Brest, its destination port in Brittany. Though the Bismarck failed the batallion remained in Brest in the coming months and covered the harbour and its surroundings with a large fog sheet of upto 160 square kilometers every time RAF bombers tried to attack. Due to this the RAF air offensive against the other heavy German units in Brest was a complete failure (except for a lucky hit on the 'Prinz Eugen'). Captured British airmen stated that target acquisition was absolutely impossible because of the thick fog thereby confirming the effectiveness of the measures taken (Hampe, 1963, pp.354).
and this one the situation a bit later:
Though isolated tactical fogging experiments had been carried out by the Luftschutz-Warndienst [Air Raid Alarm Service) already in the late 1920s interest in fogging as a means of air raid protection remained low for many years.
The so-called 'secondary fogging' described above was discovered only in summer 1939 during trials to conceal a Rhine bridge. But it was another event that sped up development. For the cruise of the 'Bismarck' around the British Isles a fog batallion had been stationed in Brest, its destination port in Brittany. Though the Bismarck failed the batallion remained in Brest in the coming months and covered the harbour and its surroundings with a large fog sheet of upto 160 square kilometers every time RAF bombers tried to attack. Due to this the RAF air offensive against the other heavy German units in Brest was a complete failure (except for a lucky hit on the 'Prinz Eugen'). Captured British airmen stated that target acquisition was absolutely impossible because of the thick fog thereby confirming the effectiveness of the measures taken (Hampe, 1963, pp.354).