1945 Lost German girl

Discussions on the role played by and situation of women in the Third Reich not covered in the other sections. Hosted by Vikki.
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ignacioosacar
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Posts: 311
Joined: 22 May 2008, 02:36
Location: Argentina

Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1561

Post by ignacioosacar » 26 May 2015, 15:23

Dear fhafha,

Great job !!!

You got the exact background in your pic.

I wonder if the milestone foundation is still there.

Apparently the old trees roots are there today.

I have a question for the thread forum members : Wasn´t the road widened after the war at this point.

I look foward visiting the LGG site someday.

Placing the lady in the picture was a good decision for accurate comparison

Again, fhafha did a great job sending the pics.

Nevertheless, after so many years I still have an unanswered question: What were the colour of LGG trousers . I have seen so many photos of Luftwaffe helferings with those sky pants but none of the Heer that I recall. The colour question, taking in consideration the old Kodak film distortion would allow to close the branch of service issue. There have been some very sound and technicaly reliable oppinions on LGG trousers in these thread in the past but nome seemed to reach a final conclusion.

Cheers

ignacioosacar
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Posts: 311
Joined: 22 May 2008, 02:36
Location: Argentina

Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1562

Post by ignacioosacar » 26 May 2015, 18:00

Dear Forum,

In the documentary " Frauen im Uniform" there is a group of relaxing surrendered helferins at 41.37 through 41.56.

Where was this film shot ? Was it near Rokucany or Pilsen ? Which was the original film from which it was taken from ? I saw it once but I am unable to find it now

In the same film at 41.32 we can see the Military Police Colonel ( Divisional patch in left arm ) with two Luftwaffe officers (one with bandage over eye). I have seen this scene before but taken from another position.

Could LGG have been a member of this helferin group ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5mRPRGN-qg

Cheers


FF7_12
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Posts: 139
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Location: Germany

Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1563

Post by FF7_12 » 27 May 2015, 18:03

I haven't seen that clip in the documentary before, Ignacio. Interesting.

Again - apparently two cameramen at work. The vid of the same column (featured several times in forum), and ending with Kneissl and co is :

http://www.ushmm.org/online/film/displa ... a_type=mp4

At 9.16 you have the same scene of the US guy talking to the Luftwaffe officer with the patched up eye. Just east of Rokycany, 9th May. There are a number of "Helferinnen" (to use the German plural) visible in that vid.

This 9th May column is the mass exodus of vehicles, which left Prague on the evening of the 8th. Taking with them Helferinnen, including those from the SS-Alarm-Flak-Abteilung. In fact one of the girls in the 9th May column can be identified from insignia as being from the SS Flak team. They apparently were the only Helferinnen permitted to wear the HJ Badge (on lower right arm). Otherwise they wore same uniform as normal Helferinnen. See stills attached.
HJ Raute.jpg
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LGG vid is 8th May. Whether LGG comes from the same group as on the 9th May vid is not impossible, but a bit speculative on the evidence. We've been there before, no ?

Plaisio
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Joined: 20 May 2015, 01:49
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1564

Post by Plaisio » 27 May 2015, 21:10

Spiegel should know better than to confuse SS/military with civilians from the German communities that formerly lived in Czechoslovakia. The expelled communities are another story that needs to be told. Thankfully, some in the Czech Republic - and officials, not just ordinary people - are remembering and apologising. Brno (Brunn) City Hall recently apologised for the Death March, 20,000 Germans were expelled from the city in May 1945 and forced to walk to Austria, with around 2000 dying along the way.
http://www.radio.cz/en/section/curraffr ... eath-march

But, that's a different issue from what we have with our LGG.

That's very intriguing, that (at least) two colour films were shot almost simultaneously (?) of the same action and scenes. Well spotted, FF7_12, finding the same girl on the truck and identifying her as SS.

The film ignacioosacar links to (STORY RG-60.2390) is also fascinating. There are truck loads of women (and some men) in civilian clothing starting at 13.30, with lots of luggage.

At around 15.30 on this video there is a Helferennin on the back of a truck with German soldiers. She too stares straight into the camera. Superficially she resembles our LGG, but it's not her. She does appear to be wearing a similar black t-shirt as the one worn by LGG (albeit with a white shirt underneath and a jacket on top).

These colour films of the German surrender in Czechoslovakia are amazing. LGG fascinates us because of her raw emotion. What's intriguing about many of these other German military, now effectively prisoners, is how they're smiling or just pretending to be casually going about their business. Not because they're genuinely happy or relaxed but because they're sheepish, trying to be incognito, wanting to give a pleasant impression.

ignacioosacar
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Posts: 311
Joined: 22 May 2008, 02:36
Location: Argentina

Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1565

Post by ignacioosacar » 27 May 2015, 23:17

Dear FF7_12,

Your observation of the HJ badge on the girl`s cuff is very interesting. Noone noticed that before

You are right FF7_12 regarding the temptation of speculative thinking.

What struck my attention was that these group of helferinnen wear uniforms that seem to be in brand new condition.

To identify the core film and the location would be at least another brick in the wall.

Someone positively identified the US Colonel some pages ago. I´m combing the thread. So far no success.

Cheers

FF7_12
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Posts: 139
Joined: 25 Jun 2012, 14:26
Location: Germany

Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1566

Post by FF7_12 » 28 May 2015, 08:48

One other point.

Looking at LGG's hands, see attached stills, it seem clear to me that this is someone who has been doing quite a bit of manual work, judging by the condition of her fingers. Not only that - the black under and around the nails would typically come from oil.

One of a Flakhelfer's jobs was maintaining the Flak guns - oiling, greasing etc.

I think this a further indication that LGG is a Flakhelferin. Another type of auxiliary - typist, wireless operator, medical - wouldn't end up with those fingers. A concentration camp guard neither (some people in forum have speculated on that).
IMG_3187.PNG
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ignacioosacar
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Location: Argentina

Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1567

Post by ignacioosacar » 28 May 2015, 17:11

Dear Forum,

Interesting FF7_12 observation regarding hands and fingernails.

Just a side comment about the US 16th Armored Division Colonel directing traffic. He could had been either the Chief of Staff, the Artillery Commander or Combat Team B Commander, there were no other full Colonels serving with the Division at that time.

Cheers

ignacioosacar
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Posts: 311
Joined: 22 May 2008, 02:36
Location: Argentina

Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1568

Post by ignacioosacar » 28 May 2015, 17:24

Dear Forum,

For newcomers and not oldtimers as well, my tribute to Torsten, who in page 13 found the LGG location. A research that sets an example to follow.


Hello igncioosacar and the rest of the wild bunch!

The photo I found by chance via Google image search. I already suspected Ejpovice and tried to find historical pictures from there. For unknown reasons Czechoslovakia's Geological Survey examined the Ejpovice region in 1951 and there are several photos on the net. This one was obviously taken because of the drilling rig left of the road. Other photos show a small quarry, just landscape and even the car of the survey team. I could not recognize any real sense in their photos, it looked almost like tourist snapshots. Well, doesn't matter. At least they recorded what I wanted.

Another thing: I may have solved the mystery of the '78' milestone. Being a land surveyor I looked for places in Prague where I would start counting the distance to Pilsen. As the road net in and around Prague has been redesigned and renumbered a lot since WWII I did not solely rely on Google Earth but also used the old (pre-WWI) Austro-Hungarian maps in 1:75000 scale available at http://oldmaps.geolab.cz/map_root.pl?z_ ... p_root=3vm .
[I'm not absolutely sure from when these 1:75000 map sheets are. Third national land survey was done around 1880 -1890 but various details in the maps make me think these very sheets are from later than 1921, some perhaps even later than WWII.]

The place most likely to me is the corner of Stefanikova (street) and Plzenska (street) in Prague. Plzenska of course just means 'road to Pilsen' (Plzen in Czech), which has its eastern end there. When I use Google Earth to track the old chaussée Prague - Pilsen (now for the most part National Road 605) the results are as follows:

Praha, Plzenska 2 - Praha, Zlicin
8,1 km
Praha, Zlicin - Rudna, 605
6,5 km
Rudna, 605 - Lodenice, 605
6,3 km
Lodenice, 605 - Beroun, 605
7,2 km
Beroun, 605 - Zdice, 605
9,3 km
Zdice, 605 - Chlustina, 605
4,6 km
Chlustina, 605 - Zebrak, 605
4,1 km
Zebrak, 605 - Cerhovice, 605
5,1 km
Cerhovice, 605 - Myto, 605
9,6 km
Myto, 605 - Rokycany, 605
12,0 km
Rokycany, 605 - Ejpovice (dirt road junction , end point manually set)
5,2 km

Sum: 78 km!

There are two or three places where National Road 605 is intersected by the modern D5 motorway and swerves slightly from the historical track of the chaussée Prague - Pilsen, for example in the Zdice - Zebrak segment. I don't think this enhances today's total distance for more than 100 or 200 meters. But if we move the end position at Ejpovice 100 or 200 meters to the west to account for this we would start to see the dirt road running uphill in the background. And that is exactly what we see in Haglund's motion picture!

With regard to this the location case is closed for me unless some really earthshaking new details emerge.

Best regards
Torsten

Plaisio
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1569

Post by Plaisio » 28 May 2015, 23:13

That is indeed an excellent post by Torsten. But he is, I believe, a land surveyor, so a trained professional who has the skills and knowledge to make such evaluations.

What we need at this point is a trained historian with a background in mid-20th century European history and a knowledge of German, Czech and English and who knows how to use archives. (I do know people like this, but they're far too busy on their own projects to help me.)

If we are going to do any further research on the LGG, then we need to know what the questions are.

First of all, who is she? A tough one. Unless someone recognises her or we can establish just who was in the vicinity of Ejpovice on that day 70 years ago, then we will not learn more about her as an individual.

There is also the broader question of who is she, in terms of some of the issues that have already been discussed here. Was she German? Was she SS or a simple helferin? A local? I believe this question has been satisfactorily answered in this thread: a German, a helferin, perhaps even SS.

Secondly, what was she doing there? What had happened to her, how did she get into the physical condition she's in, and who did it to her?

What is happening in her interaction with the cameraman?

Then there are the broader questions - what's going on generally, who's doing the filming.

And the broader historical questions - the liberation of western Czechoslovakia by the Americans, the German retreat (which could help us answer some aspects of who she is and how she got here).

The all-important question of where she is - and where some of the other scenes in these films were shot - has been satisfactorily answered by Torsten and others. This can help us understand who the Germans in these locations were and why they are there.

I'm fascinated at how cordial the surrendering Germans are being, but I guess they have no choice.

Aside from a professional historian (or even a very good amateur historian, with time to spare), a German lip reader, who may be able to tell us some of what's being said, would be amazing.

I do, in fact, believe that it is possible to identify LGG, but it would take a lot of work in the archives, perhaps looking through documents and collections that have not been touched for 70 years and have probably not been catalogued.

Plaisio
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1570

Post by Plaisio » 28 May 2015, 23:23

By the way, I found an academic article online entitled "Americans in West Bohemia in 1945" by Peter Fischer and Roman Kodet at the following link.

https://otik.uk.zcu.cz/bitstream/handle ... sequence=1

I haven't read it all yet, but did a search for Ejpovice. There is one occurrence in the text:
However, German soldiers mostly surrendered without a fight, knowing that they were going to milder American prison camps. In large numbers, they fled to West Bohemia, in the direction from Prague, running away from the advancing Red Army. Yet some of them wanted to escape from captivity, perhaps to try to get home or at least to Germany on their own. But Americans were uncompromising in case of an attempted escape and fired at fleeing captives. This happened, for example, when 2,000 prisoners of war were brought to the Pilsen barracks (which served as lodgings for captives until POW camps were built near the city). When passing through Ejpovice, eight Germans attempted to escape, but the American guards shot and killed all of them.
I wonder if these eight were among the dead Germans we see in the LGG video. Although it would surprise me if the Americans killed them and then documented it.

billdi
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Posts: 13
Joined: 02 Sep 2014, 19:03

Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1571

Post by billdi » 29 May 2015, 16:05

Hey Plaisio,

Most wounded and dead men have blood running out of their ears, which indicates they were beaten on the head with a bat or sth.
Lgg has a swollen face and hands.

They are evidently not the people the americans shot dead. The trauma from bullets leaves a different picture

fhafha
Member
Posts: 182
Joined: 21 Jun 2013, 23:10

Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1572

Post by fhafha » 29 May 2015, 17:44

ignacioosacar wrote:Dear fhafha,

Great job !!!

You got the exact background in your pic.

I wonder if the milestone foundation is still there.

I searched for it 2 miles but did not find any thing. I saw only one oldstyle milestone from Plezen to Myto at KmPoint 88

Apparently the old trees roots are there today. Yes the other side of the ditches

I have a question for the thread forum members : Wasn´t the road widened after the war at this point. No definitively. Road has been shorten, see position for the ditches. On current time pictures, my LGG would be on the WWII road.

I look foward visiting the LGG site someday.

Placing the lady in the picture was a good decision for accurate comparison

Again, fhafha did a great job sending the pics.

Nevertheless, after so many years I still have an unanswered question: What were the colour of LGG trousers . I have seen so many photos of Luftwaffe helferings with those sky pants but none of the Heer that I recall. The colour question, taking in consideration the old Kodak film distortion would allow to close the branch of service issue. There have been some very sound and technicaly reliable oppinions on LGG trousers in these thread in the past but nome seemed to reach a final conclusion.

Cheers

fhafha
Member
Posts: 182
Joined: 21 Jun 2013, 23:10

Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1573

Post by fhafha » 29 May 2015, 18:00

ignacioosacar wrote:Dear Forum,

In the documentary " Frauen im Uniform" there is a group of relaxing surrendered helferins at 41.37 through 41.56.

Where was this film shot ? Was it near Rokucany or Pilsen ? Which was the original film from which it was taken from ? I saw it once but I am unable to find it now

In the same film at 41.32 we can see the Military Police Colonel ( Divisional patch in left arm ) with two Luftwaffe officers (one with bandage over eye). I have seen this scene before but taken from another position.

Could LGG have been a member of this helferin group ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5mRPRGN-qg

Cheers


This footage is on the 9th of may. This is also part of the Hanglud team movies. the ladies are in West of Ejpovice where a temporary female POW camp was established (Males were on the east of the village at the LGG scene location). I have current pictures for the site, I will add.

ignacioosacar
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Posts: 311
Joined: 22 May 2008, 02:36
Location: Argentina

Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1574

Post by ignacioosacar » 29 May 2015, 22:32

Dear fhafha and Forum,

Thank you for your answer.

So at the time of the film LGG was on the wrong side of Ejpovice for a female POW.

Cheers

fhafha
Member
Posts: 182
Joined: 21 Jun 2013, 23:10

Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1575

Post by fhafha » 29 May 2015, 23:00

To be sharp, LGG scene is on the 8th of may in the afternoon, around 4PM. The Female POW camp Pop up on the 9th. So it 's still possible the LGG move there. But not sure as on the 8th german POW were directed to Plisen.

Coming up to my mind. Us 16th armored div moved from Pliesen towards Praha on the 7th of may, liberating Rokycany on the 7th Ejpovice. Stopping their move forward 15km from Praha.
Then the us 16t Div moved back on the afternoon of the 8th passing through Ejpovice by the end of the day. Us follow up troops (2INF DIV) Established a demarcation line on the 9th in Rokycany and a check point from where they start to check german surrending troops for weapons . On that day POW camp where established West and East of Ejpovice.

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