1945 Lost German girl

[ignacioosacar]

Dear Forum,

Thank you fhafha for the dates. It gives me a base for an assumption. Probably LGG was a founding member of the female camp. The US forces secured the two perimenters, East and West of Ejpovice, BEFORE sunset of the 8th. If I had been the US CO in that area of reponsibility I would have been very concerned in having so many unscorted German POW´s at nightime marching West. Concentrating them inside provisional perimeters as soon as possible is a standard procedure. That may have started happening at daytime hours on the 8th, or even the day before. So that is why on 9th at dawn the female camp was already filled with POW´s. If the caption was 1600, she was saying goodbye to her male comrades who were to stay right there ( North and South of the road ) and she would have started walking West towards the ladies camp.

Cheers

[fhafha]

Dear Ignacioo,

U may be right, difficult to say.
From my point of view, 16th US armored div units where in charge of this area on the 8th and were ordered to withdraw North of Plisen on that day. 2nd infantry div relieved in place the 16th div, and established demarcation line in Rokycany as well as the POW collection procedures the 9th of may. I think they opened the Ejpovice camps during the daytime of the 9th.

Pow from the 8th were escorted to Plisen till the barraks ran out of space. I read something about a POW depot also at the 16th Div HQ location, North of Pliesen. I will find it out.

[FF7_12]

This is worth a read:

https://books.google.de/books?id=7B3X6a ... my&f=false

In particular on page 186:

Instruction.JPG (46.12 KiB) Viewed 1343 times

So maybe Pilsen was the 16th AD POW location and Ejpovice the one for the 2nd ID, if each was responsible for supervising its own prisoners. Maybe the LGG group was less than 200 men ?

On page 200 of "Last Shots" there is also a reference to prisoners being guarded by the 16th AD on 7th May to the east of Pilsen and then marched back to Pilsen.

Unfortunately no mention of our Ejpovice events. Maybe surprising for such a detailed researched book ?

[fhafha]

The facts are the US (Patton) decided to move towards Praha on the 7th to give hand to the uprising (Rokycany is 11 km from Plisen) . This move was stopped on the 8th by Eisenhower in order to fit with the soviets' protest. From this late and local agreement came out the demarcation line in Rokycany and the fact that US will accept german as POW till the 9th in the evening (after they will be POW to the soviets), but also that SS and white russian will be returned to the soviets.

But this is a good highlight that can explain that small groups of german marchers made their way to Pleisen with out US escort and the late set up of gathering points. Remember war was not over till the 9th at 0100 am.

[fhafha]

Ignaccio and ff7...i think u point out something very very important that i will explain soon.
Regarding ther order of the scenes in the original footage, the lgg should be part of isolated marchers coming late on the 8th east of Ejpovice. And surely later after the main groups we can see in the morning at Myto and we find again west of Ejpovice in the evening.
What does it mean?
1 lgg was part of them and has been abandoned at any point...i dont think.
2 lgg was not with them and come from an other direction. If so i think she is not from Rokycany. This city was liberated on the day before and she will have join the main german marcher groups.
3 She and the other sitting with her missed the last german groups on that day. So she may had passed the night there...i dont think so. OR she moved an other way to the west and a Pow camp. At this point i dig out one my old idea she is part of passagers on board 16 ar div halftraks driving west by the end of day.....

[FF7_12]

That's interesting, fhahfa.

Not all the SS were returned to Soviets. "Der Fuehrer" (Waffen SS) arrived in Rokycany on 9th and stayed as American prisoners.

Some Police divisions were sent back by the Americans, and also some Heer.

It would be interesting to know why Czechs are escorting the German prisoners through Myto on 8th. The Prague truce was not signed till late afternoon on 8th. Maybe there was an arrangement between the Czechs and Americans regarding German POWs held by the Czechs.

[ignacioosacar]

Desr Forum,

Very interesting book. Gives detailed information of events. Worth reading it. At 297 you can see a helferin in white shirt still mixed with the soldiers. Also women in civilian clothes and probably another helferin in white shirt in the same group.

Cheers.

[fhafha]

Dear all,

I made a new map summarize events east of Ejpovice on the 8th of may 45 in the afternoon. This will participate too explain a new idea I am working on. The scene describ on the map are part of the original footage from Spielberg archives. And they start on the East around 2 PM running to the West around 4 Pm (before moving to Ejpovice).

1945 aerial picture of the area

carte LGG 1945 .jpg (7.84 KiB) Viewed 1131 times

[ignacioosacar]

Dear fhafha and Forum

Great job !

The background hill line matches exactly the original LGG film in this LGG position in your map composition.

I still have a few questions for you:
What happened to the white road (?) in the right side of the picture. Any traces of it now ? Little is seen in the Google map now
What happened to the trees in both sides of the road ? Why were they chopped down ? Any idea ?
Also the ditch position confuses me very much. Is it a new ditch or just the old one and what was changed was the tree line ?

Very intrigued with your new idea regarding the LGG incident.

Cheers

[FF7_12]

fhafa,

Apart from massacres 1 and 2 aren't there some other attacks down towards Epjovice ? The badly beaten guy behind the "LGG Family", the three deads with the LW-type blue overalls (critical past vid), and the Hungarian dead ?

The deads in the blue overalls are interesting because they obviously are from the same LW group. I think there are also two guys with similar LW overalls in the "Family" pic and the guy with the spectacles in the ditch early in the LGG vid has LW collar insignia.
See also attached, which could also be the typical LW yellow collar insignia?

This might mean a relatively high proportion of LW on site, or just that the Czech partisans were targeting LW personnel because of the notable role that the LW was playing in the German attempts to suppress the Prague uprising.

[fhafha]

Dear fhafha and Forum

Great job !

The background hill line matches exactly the original LGG film in this LGG position in your map composition.

I still have a few questions for you:
What happened to the white road (?) in the right side of the picture. Any traces of it now ? Little is seen in the Google map now

I think it s not a road but a track or path. The soil is of white earth. Running south tovsomething now the other side of the motorway. Tracks still exist inside fields

What happened to the trees in both sides of the road ? Why were they chopped down ? Any idea ?

As in most part of europe, trees aling road have been chopped down because of road accident and also because of a specific infection the GI s bring with them from america.



Also the ditch position confuses me very much. Is it a new ditch or just the old one and what was changed was the tree line ?



The ditches i think. Roads were larger in europe on old times.

Very intrigued with your new idea regarding the LGG incident.

Cheers

[fhafha]

[quote="FF7_12"]fhafa,

Apart from massacres 1 and 2 aren't there some other attacks down towards Epjovice ? At least one is lying in the field west of lgg family as u can see on the critical past landscape scene.


The badly beaten guy behind the "LGG Family", no idea where this happened.
the three deads with the LW-type blue overalls (critical past vid), massacre 2
and the Hungarian dead ? I think this one is part of the Ejpovice us victims.

The deads in the blue overalls are interesting because they obviously are from the same LW group. I think there are also two guys with similar LW overalls in the "Family" pic and the guy with the spectacles in the ditch early in the LGG vid has LW collar insignia.
See also attached, which could also be the typical LW yellow collar insignia?

Very interisting. I know there was a luftwaffe air strip somewhere North of Rokycany. Today used for musicfestival.

This might mean a relatively high proportion of LW on site, or just that the Czech partisans were targeting LW personnel because of the notable role that the LW was playing in the German attempts to suppress the Prague

I do not think they are coming Praha

[FF7_12]

Fhafa,

So the attached still of these three deads is at your massacre 2 site ?

Also this one ?

[fhafha]

Yes. On picture 2. Main road is on the right . And in the background u can see the road runing south i have re drawn on my map in light blue (90° angle with main road). On the second picture the guy on the left is the same on that on your previous post.

[FF7_12]

The badly beaten guy behind the "LGG Family", no idea where this happened.

fhahfa, I mean the attached - he must have been attacked where he is lying, I assume. You thought he was behind the LGG "family" sitting - and I agree with that.

Injured2.png (434.33 KiB) Viewed 953 times

I do not think they are coming Praha

I meant that the hostility of the Czechs would be to the LW in general - whether they actually came from Prague or not would not matter.