1945 Lost German girl

Discussions on the role played by and situation of women in the Third Reich not covered in the other sections. Hosted by Vikki.
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Samhain
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1861

Post by Samhain » 12 Dec 2015, 21:26

Hello everyone!

As with everyone else this girl has fascinated me. It was her saking her head no that really got me hooked and wanted to know more. I have a few tidbits to add. Please forgive me if this has been posted. I'm on page 69 of this thread right now and have not seen it posted so far at least.

1. http://www.ushmm.org/online/film/displa ... e_num=4686 in this video filmed by Haglund at 21:20 is a female wearing a maroon roll neck pullover. Is this that same girl in this link? http://www.panzergrenadier.net/forum/vi ... ?f=7&t=703
LGG has a very similar roll neck pullover on. Its just dark blue instead of maroon. Also LGG's has been pulled and stretched from the fight she was in.

2. The pants LGG wears is almost the same as these, https://www.pinterest.com/pin/256423772510396524/ It seems LGG's has a Button front though.

3. In the same video as the girl with the maroon pullover on they show POW's on the march, Starting at 8:04 til about 8:07 there is a girl walking behind a tall man dead center in the video. Hard to get a good look but it might be LGG. The woman is wearing a grey coat this time. Would match what a flak helferin would wear. ( Why would she lose it though?) I did find out that on the 8th after a big group of POW's left Rokycany and were on there way to Pilsen a group tried to escape but were shot and killed by the Americans. (maby thats the corpses Haglund is filming close to LGG?)

Opinions would be greatly appreciated!!! My own is that she was a flak helferin and was beat up (at the least!) by Czech partisans on her way to surrender to the good ol U.S.A. She put up a fight though!! Both of her hands are swollen. They might have tried to rape her but I dont think they managed it.

So now my plan is to try (key word) and find out if there is a list of flak helferin units in the area. For the sake of argument say LGG is one of those, where do you think she would have been stationed? Prague is 75 miles away so that might be to far.

I hope I didnt repeat too many things others have wrote on this amazing thread. You all deserve are round of applause and even if she remains a mystery forever we still did find out so much about what went on in that area during the chaotic final days of the third reich!

Regards,
Shane

BavonWW
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl: A digression

#1862

Post by BavonWW » 15 Dec 2015, 02:22

On a light note: At 19:04 a young Telly Savalas appears at right from behind group of G.I. body-watchers or am I starting to display signs of LGG psychosis?
Please don't take my Telly Savalas comment the wrong way.


Anyway:
This subject, the LLG, and all the dead and wounded soldiers in this film have fascinated me for a long while.
LLG has an upper middle class appearance, Possibly senior officer's daughter? Might explain very young dead boy, a brother? Otherwise FlAK girl is the best bet.
Many of the dead and wounded appear malnourished. Had they been hiding in woods for a while?
She could do with a meal herself. Explains pronounced cheekbones.
One other person mentioned this: The thousand mile stare. That is very real. Indicative a severe stress and trauma. One or two of the wounded display it too.
Man at 18:18 has a bullet wound in his jaw indicating a botched execution. Chance or surviving small as antibiotics were still new and rare.
The whole film sums up the stark reality of war. Any thing but glamorous or heroic.
I remember touring Europe as a child c 1958 saw bombed cities, ground full of spent munitions, found skull in helmet, reported it of course. Still lines of refugees, Allied Forces troops everywhere. Poignant missing persons program on W/Germany TV displaying pictures of missing people, mostly soldiers.. left a deep impression on me

Notice that some of the Czech peasants and villagers have smart polished shoes possibly bought or taken of departing Germans? Or is it a Sunday?


ignacioosacar
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1863

Post by ignacioosacar » 15 Dec 2015, 19:58

Hello Ondy !

Most welcomed to the thread. We have been encouraging Czechs for years to contribute with their input. So far a few have joined the ranks. Mikaela is one of them. She introduced LGG to the comtemporary art world ! It would be great to have some comparison photos from you. "In situ" reports are always an effective way to reasure comfirmation. There are very good photos, including a forum member girl posing as LGG in the location ! Discussions on where the precise spot is are very amusing ( plus-minus one meter ! ). Someone suggested renacting the situation in a shot video some time ago given that Czechs have always had special talents for directing and acting excellent films.

By the way Ondy, how much would a taxi from Pilsen to Ejpovice with a half an hour wait would cost ?

Where do you exactly live Ondy ? We have become experts in Western Czech Republic geography.

Cheers !

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Samhain
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1864

Post by Samhain » 15 Dec 2015, 21:28

Hi again everybody!

I see some of my ideas in my last post people thought of already. Not surprising concidering how you guys have covered almost all the bases so well!
I did just notice something in a clip that was posted back on page 92. Is the man on the right in the truck the same as the man sitting to LGG's left in the smiling picture? Could that smiling blonde in the truck be LGG?
Attachments
LGG and Friends.png
LGG and Friends maby.png

BavonWW
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1865

Post by BavonWW » 17 Dec 2015, 07:03

How do we know that Haglund got her to pose? The simplest explanation is that she is scared and traumatised. She may well have walked away herself then been called back. Facts, we need facts.
Failing facts we need some expert war injury opinions.
From my own bitter experience many of the dead and two of the living appear to have pistol shot wounds to the head. People do not always die from a bullet to the head. Again the large amount of blood on one side only of most victims suggests a shot to the head. You have to beat a person quite hard to provoke such a scale of bleeding. Look again.
However I still would request we find an expert on gunshot trauma.
I also forgot to note the details of one film showing the second team film. On it an older man is turning over the bodies and writing down details. Doctor?
The dead appear to be in various stages of decomposition as they probably died at different times: some immediately; some later from their injuries.
Experts please!

PS.
Apologies for multiple CRs in my previous post. My edit privilege for that post has expired. I am going to ask moderators if I can be allowed to correct it.

history1
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1866

Post by history1 » 17 Dec 2015, 08:28

BavonWW wrote:[...]
Failing facts we need some expert war injury opinions.
From my own bitter experience many of the dead and two of the living appear to have pistol shot wounds to the head. People do not always die from a bullet to the head. Again the large amount of blood on one side only of most victims suggests a shot to the head. You have to beat a person quite hard to provoke such a scale of bleeding. Look again.
However I still would request we find an expert on gunshot trauma.
I also forgot to note the details of one film showing the second team film. On it an older man is turning over the bodies and writing down details. Doctor?
The dead appear to be in various stages of decomposition as they probably died at different times: some immediately; some later from their injuries.
Experts please![...]
Hi,
please provide links to the accurate scenes you´re talking about. Not calling myself an expert but a RN with decades of experience.
Cheers, Roman

BavonWW
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1867

Post by BavonWW » 17 Dec 2015, 10:25

Not an expert myself just trying to be dis passionate in order to unearth the real truth.
Some events seem staged such as the villagers at the end of 1st Film: http://www.ushmm.org/online/film/displa ... e_num=4686
spitting on corpse?

It is the 2nd unit film that does open up possibility of post war crime. This might be why camera man pans away to distant village and landscape in order to have visual evidence. Also the doctor? checking bodies then writing down notes. Also if people on jeeps are dead then they are being removed for evidence or maybe just ID procedure in case they are wanted war criminals. Sort of thing I would do if in charge.


Anyway here are some film notes:

Film 1: http://www.ushmm.org/online/film/displa ... e_num=4686

Begin of bodies:

From 12:26:/25:26 Place of film?

01:12:33:13 Bodies begin
01:12:53:26 Rigor mortis?
01:13:18:05 Alive: injuries not shown
01:14:52:00 Gunshot again? Large blood splashes
01:14:58:17 Gunshot? Large splash of blood on left side arm probably help up.
01:15:11:00 Ditto (15:06 /25:26)
01:15:55:11 Part of skull missing: Gunshot?
01:17:19:13 Lividity (17:15 /25:26)
01:18:18:15 Man has large wound under left ear
And on.....

Film 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... RhXJs9TmVc
#I have just noticed flat horse drawn wagon carrying bodies under a tarpaulin.This is at: 6:42 /13:09
US forces appear to be in control of area. Though partisans can be seen at checkpoints and escorting a column of surrendering troops.
Doctor or official examining bodies: 7:10 /13:09
Large body of surrendering troops in field? 5:16 /13:09 Perhaps cameraman was not filming location for evidence but to show the field where surrendering troops were starting to be billeted. ? Questions??



The more you watch the more you notice.
Last edited by BavonWW on 17 Dec 2015, 20:37, edited 1 time in total.

history1
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1868

Post by history1 » 17 Dec 2015, 19:36

@ BavonWW:
" 01:12:53:26 Rigor mortis ?"
No. Position during passing away, no postmortem lividity yet which appears earlier than rigor mortis (rigor mortis starts 2-4 hours after death and total [whole body] at 6-8h after death), livores starts already partial 20-30 minutes after death on the lateral cervix and neck.
"01:17:19:13 Lividity (17:15 /25:26)"
See above

Ref. the assumed gunshots, I don´t see any bullet holes on the clothes. The amount of blood does not compellable qualify to assume gunshots, Ive seen people deceasing because of ruptured varicose veins in their esophagus with much more blood vomited.
Neither can I say that I´m seeing a huge part of a skull missing in that mentioned scene. Too much shadow and dried blood for me. But you are sure correct with the wound below the ear on that specific man.
IMHO those guys rather got beat up with blunt instruments eg. clubs, gun butts by local people/partisans. There is a lot of bleeding from the ears,noses which are a sign of severe brain damage/basilar skull fracture. Bleeding from the mouth is a hint for chest injuries due to blunt mechanisms/instruments often accompanied by further injury because of eg. fractured ribs stabbing into the lung. But of course stabbing or shooting can also provide such bleeding from the mouth.

"US forces appear to be in control of area. Though partisans can be seen at checkpoints and escorting a column of surrendering troops."
Nothing special. A bit OT but is will sheed light on the situation: Are you familiar with the liberation of the KL Dachau and what US-troops did there and allowed former inmates? If not you can read it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_li ... _reprisals
All under the eye of honorable US-officers.

BavonWW
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1869

Post by BavonWW » 17 Dec 2015, 20:59

Arrgh what happened to reply I just wrote?
Anyway I I have to bow to your experience, although I didn't mean gunshots but rather single gunshots to the head. Perhaps they were beaten first then an officer or leader went around with his pistol to apply coup de grace. Somewhat hurriedly in this incident.

Still intrigued by doctor/official examining corpses at 7:10 /13:09 in https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... RhXJs9TmVc
Also who are those people in the field behind bodies? I can also see rows of tents or is it my eyes : 5:16 /13:09

A post mentions LLG girls' grubby hands being result of handling oil and machinery. That sounds right so I feel sure that she is a Helferin


Will keep watching. Something hangs over these events which is more than just mob justice at war's end.

Film 2 appears to be a montage made up from the various camera units under Haglund

history1
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1870

Post by history1 » 18 Dec 2015, 13:54

Maybe you did hit "Save draft" instead "submit" when finishing your post? Happened to me also a few times when joining the forum.
No need for enthusiasm either, I had also to reread some info in my books about forensic medicine.
No tents at 05:16 in the right half of the vid, just young trees and a field behind.
Last edited by history1 on 19 Dec 2015, 10:35, edited 1 time in total.

BavonWW
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1871

Post by BavonWW » 18 Dec 2015, 22:55

Through A Glass Darkly

Nothing like a new pair of reading glasses. History1, your reply prompted me to collect my new spectacles, which had been languishing for a while, from optician; what a difference!. Yes it is just trees, mostly fir? Anyway, I am able to review the films in a different light. No more pareidolia.
Thank you...

AndrewCH
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1872

Post by AndrewCH » 22 Dec 2015, 01:53

Hello,

have seen this clip many times and did my own investigations.
During reading a book about German "Luftwaffenhelferinnen" out of one city and school class, where they discribed their retreat out of the Pilzen area, you could see many simularies to the your done investigations. I right now tried to find the book, but couldn't (have to many of those). There were quiet a view pictures of the girls inside the book. It was written how many of them died, were killed by civilians and how many beaten up escaped.
I really think the final end of the LGG story will be found there.
I try to find the book and maybe some notes or reports about those groups in the net also. Maybe you all should focus onto those scripts and reprots, because the area is now known.

Good hunting
"Our history will be written by our children, but we will decide what role we will have."

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Danno
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1873

Post by Danno » 22 Dec 2015, 19:33

Sounds very interestinng.

Hope you find the book! :)
AndrewCH wrote:Hello,

have seen this clip many times and did my own investigations.
During reading a book about German "Luftwaffenhelferinnen" out of one city and school class, where they discribed their retreat out of the Pilzen area, you could see many simularies to the your done investigations. I right now tried to find the book, but couldn't (have to many of those). There were quiet a view pictures of the girls inside the book. It was written how many of them died, were killed by civilians and how many beaten up escaped.
I really think the final end of the LGG story will be found there.
I try to find the book and maybe some notes or reports about those groups in the net also. Maybe you all should focus onto those scripts and reprots, because the area is now known.

Good hunting

ignacioosacar
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1874

Post by ignacioosacar » 24 Dec 2015, 00:04

Hello Andrew CH,

Isn´t the book "Zur Problematik von Soldatinnen" by Jutta Ruediger.
Some of the photos have already been published in this thread ?
Check for some group photos of Luftwaffe helferins in this thread. They belong to the mentioned book if i remember well.

Cheers!

Leo7382
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Re: 1945 Lost German girl

#1875

Post by Leo7382 » 13 Jan 2016, 17:40

I have only today seen this footage. Is there any chance the attractive blonde girl could have been abused and stole the clothes you see her in and what actual proof is there that she was SS...????

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