1945 Lost German girl

[fhafha]

Can someone point me to the video with LGG possibly sat on the tank.

Cant find it!

The link I gave just before at 1m50

[FF7_12]

I came across the story of a German soldier who was taken prisoner by the Americans near Pilsen (I am pretty sure it must be Ejpovice), on 8th May around noon, or early afternoon after being marched from just west of Prague. Will post more shortly

http://engewald.com/T%204505Zusatz1.htm

This is the link to the Engewald family website, the diary of Wolfgang Engewald. He was a young German soldier who was stationed at the end of the war at the Motol barracks, just west of Prague.

The troops at the Motol barracks (about 1,500 men) surrendered to Wlassow troops on late 6th May and were marched off as prisoners towards Pilsen, guarded first by Wlassows and then handed over to Czech militia, on 7th May. On the way they were attacked by German ME 262s (I assume aiming for Wlassows going the other direction towards Prague) and SS Flak (which...?) bombarding the Wlassow positions.

They marched 58km on the 7th May, then spent the night in a village. They continued the march on the 8th, starting early and were finally handed over to the Americans early afternoon. By then the column had broken up into smaller groups.

The places they went through are not specified, there is only a gap, I assume because the Czech names were hard to read from the original diary. However, I am fairly certain that the route they took was the "LGG road" (now the 605) from Prague, through to Ejpovice via Rokycany, based on the details provided in the diary regarding distances and the description of the places. Also, per the Ejpovice chronicles about 2,000 troops who arrived at Ejpovice on morning of May 8th "came straight from their barracks at Pod Broskou". The barracks there were demolished before the war; so I reckon the chronicles are inaccurate, they really refer to the Motol barracks and this column.

Anyway, to get to the main point : a few kilometres after passing through a town (Rokycany...?), they saw about "200 dead German comrades lying to the right of the road" who had been in the same column. Continuing, and arriving on a higher piece of ground (the road just east of Ejpovice?) and looking down into the valley below, they saw American armoured vehicles. They were sat in the ditch at the side of the road, given water and then taken by the Americans in vehicles to the POW camp in Pilsen.

That is my summary of this very interesting diary. I asked the Engewald who operates the site for confirmation or more info on the places - but as yet no reply.....

[Irish Ed]

Hi all,

Am enthralled at this subject and commend all of you for your investigative diligence. Superb. I have read through all posts so don't think this has been highlighted before. It is a utube clip of Waffen SS surrendering near Pilsen / Bohemia 9th May 1945. At 1:34 in clip you will see field in back ground with what looks like civilians???? I wonder if this is same road (605)?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=purlnb6wb08

[fhafha]

Hi all,

Am enthralled at this subject and commend all of you for your investigative diligence. Superb. I have read through all posts so don't think this has been highlighted before. It is a utube clip of Waffen SS surrendering near Pilsen / Bohemia 9th May 1945. At 1:34 in clip you will see field in back ground with what looks like civilians???? I wonder if this is same road (605)?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=purlnb6wb08

Hi and wellcome. This has been discussed before, last summer i think. This video shows members of 20th panzer div recce unit attached to 2ss panzer div on the last days of war. They are surrendering to US troop at the exact place for the LGG scene (landscape and the stuff along the road behind the american officer near the ambulance). The scene should be on the 9th in the morning). U can find other footages showing this german Sdkfz 232 Puma in color a bit before at the exit of Rockycany and an other showing them moving toward Pliesen.

Regards

[fhafha]

I came across the story of a German soldier who was taken prisoner by the Americans near Pilsen (I am pretty sure it must be Ejpovice), on 8th May around noon, or early afternoon after being marched from just west of Prague. Will post more shortly

http://engewald.com/T%204505Zusatz1.htm

This is the link to the Engewald family website, the diary of Wolfgang Engewald. He was a young German soldier who was stationed at the end of the war at the Motol barracks, just west of Prague.

The troops at the Motol barracks (about 1,500 men) surrendered to Wlassow troops on late 6th May and were marched off as prisoners towards Pilsen, guarded first by Wlassows and then handed over to Czech militia, on 7th May. On the way they were attacked by German ME 262s (I assume aiming for Wlassows going the other direction towards Prague) and SS Flak (which...?) bombarding the Wlassow positions.

They marched 58km on the 7th May, then spent the night in a village. They continued the march on the 8th, starting early and were finally handed over to the Americans early afternoon. By then the column had broken up into smaller groups.

The places they went through are not specified, there is only a gap, I assume because the Czech names were hard to read from the original diary. However, I am fairly certain that the route they took was the "LGG road" (now the 605) from Prague, through to Ejpovice via Rokycany, based on the details provided in the diary regarding distances and the description of the places. Also, per the Ejpovice chronicles about 2,000 troops who arrived at Ejpovice on morning of May 8th "came straight from their barracks at Pod Broskou". The barracks there were demolished before the war; so I reckon the chronicles are inaccurate, they really refer to the Motol barracks and this column.

Anyway, to get to the main point : a few kilometres after passing through a town (Rokycany...?), they saw about "200 dead German comrades lying to the right of the road" who had been in the same column. Continuing, and arriving on a higher piece of ground (the road just east of Ejpovice?) and looking down into the valley below, they saw American armoured vehicles. They were sat in the ditch at the side of the road, given water and then taken by the Americans in vehicles to the POW camp in Pilsen.

That is my summary of this very interesting diary. I asked the Engewald who operates the site for confirmation or more info on the places - but as yet no reply.....

Very very interesting. Thx. How did u find that diary?

[FF7_12]

just by googling...changing the search slightly...

[Irish Ed]

Hi fhafha,

Many thanks for that and apologies for bring up something that was already discussed. Can anyone explain the significance of the amount of people (loook like cililians) in the fields in background in this clip?

[fhafha]

To fhafha:

"Hi DD66, in fact at this place the road is diving to Ejepovic crossroad. The camera is positioned on a trepied on top a jeep and I guess has been leveled (this can been seen on this footage : https://www.ushmm.org/online/film/displ ... e_num=3306).
It's why I guess the shadows look shorter. In this footage u can also guess the all scene (marchers bypassed by the tank column and halftrack colum) has been taken at the same place on the 8th of may. Next scene sart on the 9th Western entrance of Rokycany.

See below some views from the footage, Streetview and in situ pictures I took."

Hi there! I am not sure about your place location. On the tape, it is not the slope but rather flat, in Ejpovice there is a gentle slope. If you notice, behind the wooden fence, there is a wood, quite close, ina fact, it is more far. And in fact, inside the fence, there should be the house. It is the last one in Ejpovice towards East. Recheck your conclusion, we can discuss it.

There is a link to imagery from 1938...

http://lms.cuzk.cz/lms/WMSA08/1938/PLZE ... index.html

HI, sorry I did not see your answer before.

About the buildings :
The buildings we are dealing with are south of the road and the eastern one in Ejpovice. They are diagonaly to the road.

I checked the place last year and the two buildings are more recent than the main farm just westard at the crossroad.


About mapping :

I think the Ortophoto your link to is not from 1938 but from after the war, should be around 1952. In 1952 was introduced a new mapping system in Czech Rep and systematique aerial pictures were made. Those picture were intensively used (made?) for mining especially uranium in this area.

From the website u get the picture there are links to archive conventional maps.

U will find Ejpovice on different points as it on the border of two principal maps : 4051 and 4151.

U will notice that maps after 1952 reference to the new system.


About buidings on the maps :

On the 1944 german map, this is unclear, but the buildings does not seem to appear.

On the CZECH map, 1/50 000 M33-76-C of 1951, the left part is from 1949 datas and the buildings does not appear.

On the CZECH map, 1/25000 M33-76-C-c of 1954 (small inlay on the upper left corner of the map and magnetic declinaison dating) one of the two building appear.

On the CZECH map, 1/10 000 M33-76-C-c-1 of 1960 (small inlay.............................) the two buildings appear.



So, I am not sure 100%, but I think the two buildings behind the fence were not raised in 1945.

The trees could be part of the Orchard pending to the farm west of the place and visible on maps.

For the slope, as explain,the road running down and the camera on the jeep is levelled to stay horizontal, so the picture seems horizontal and make the shadow smaller than expected.

The curvet along the road are very similar in shape and location.

Sorry for my english.

and no problem to continue to debate this point.

Regards

[ignacioosacar]

Dear Fhafha,

Very accurate as always. I always enjoy sharing your information

[razorblade]

some short comments. At 8th of may there were all kinds of troops that unarmed themselves or gave up arms by demand of czech communists @ czechoslovakia.

This column of POW-s is @ video already moving towards east, which means they could´nt have been brought to Prague as most of them. Most of POW´s were hold @ Prague and some other cities couple of days before they were formed as columns and handed over to russians. So one possible helping factor is to find out, which troops lasted longer than 8th of may (those can be eliminated).

As the 8th of may itself was THE day - big part of all the troops under german flag just fell apart to little groups or even individuals at that very day, who all started to move towards western allies. Lots of them where moving already day or two before - and lots of them got helped by non-communist locals with civilian clothes etc. So all civilian clothes stuff does´nt mean much.

All the marking on uniforms are missing, cause everyone tried to get rid of everything to avoid being look like either SS or even frontline. Actually there were minimal amount of real SS @ Czechoslovakian hell - big part of formed troops at the very end of the war were foreign troops formed by forced mobilisation 2 occupied areas in countries such as Baltic States (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania), Austria, Italia, etc. Also germans were still able to find men from supporting units (older guys) and from children aged 12 and up.
They all were formed to troops under SS legislation - but to call them SS is plain wrong.

Women at this time in czechoslovakkia could be mostly found either at A) units headquarters (such as batallions and up), most likely some supply units headquarters - or at medical support groups. They were mostly clerks, writers, etc. etc. Of course - they were most often lovers/protege´s of some officer as well. This girl looks cute, she is clean, her clothes are in very good shape, she has been eaten well, her hair looks beautiful etc. It all refers to fact she has been taking care of, she has been moving in a car, she has been near the good supplyis, she had been have opportunities to wash herself and her hair, take care of some beauty procedures - and that means most likely she is some headquarter-girl. Those opportunities were available to german and some austrian supply troops headquarters. She also is really beautiful and even kinda foxy . that adds up.

She most likely has been raped already - her acting is kinda controversial as if she would shame herself and trying to hide it. As she has been beaten up, too - it adds up. Almost all the women, especially no-civilians - bot also most of civilian women were raped repetadley and beat up. Czech women - even middle-aged women and older - trashed they clothes and covered their faces with dust and coal trying to avoid raping. A lot of those women were raped by a mob and then killed - maybe this girl got lucky and lived somehow.

[razorblade]

The pants she is wearing are definitely hers - they are ideally fit as she even does not wear any belt or her suspenders. She has lost her overcoat - or maybe movie maker holds it.

Her fingernails are flawless. What does she hold in her hands? It does not look like a soldbuch. Diary? Letters? A map?

Guys in the columns... there not much faces in this video... they definitely are not estonians, lithuanians and most likely not latvians, there may be like austrians, germans, maybe hungarians - guys from middle of europe

[ignacioosacar]

Thank you razorblade !

[mashapasha]

Check with Jewish holocaust archives and which concentration / work camps were located in the area.

She might be a prisoner in one of the work caps in the area, and than if there were survivors - there might be evidences about this prisoner women (is she was a prisoner).

Some women serving in the SS, served as prisoners in the work and concentration camps. Some of them were extraordinarily beautiful, and known for their extraordinary cruelty. The are many evidences about woman prisoners in work & concentration camps in Czechoslovakia.

[Constan_t]

Can anyone confirm what User 'Münchhausen' wrote a few pages back? Pretty weird how no one even mentioned what Münchhausen wrote as he claims that his grandpa had direct contact to the LGG.

Since no one responded to my post a few months ago:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sup fellas,

I decided to do a small overview about the clues you guys gathered over the 7 years regarding the LGG, though I have to admit that I only read the last 30 pages as I thought it would be enough to filter some of the flimsy evidence. Feel free to post suggestions/correct me.

Let's start with the User 'Münchhausen'. He is probably the closest we got in the search of the LGG. 'Münchhausen' suggests that his grandpa had a personal encounter with the LGG on the 8th of May, 1945. That's of course, if one belevies his story. Let's just assume every word he said is true, because my whole post revovles about what he wrote in the last few pages. If you guys found out that he's a fraud and already debunked him then I'll be a sad panda. Well anyway..
'Münchahusen' claims his grandpa was there when this footage was shot by the american GI Haglund and also that he had a brief encounter with the woman shown in the video.
He posts;

He surrendered to the Americans on May 8th, 1945 next to Rokycany with several of his companions of the SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 4 "Der Führer". He was not a member of the column commanded by Weiddinger - left later - but was progressing with two other motorcyclists of the SS-Aufklärungs rolled up in white flags and sent by officers to recognize and make sure that the road had well been secured - as agreed between Weiddinger and the Americans - because the attacks of partisans were ceaseless. He told me that the concerned German troops had all received from some American gasoline without which they would never have been able to cross the distance between Prag and Rokycany.

The LGG was a member of a group of about ten Waffen-SS " Böhmen " wearing civilian clothes and desperately trying to reach the American lines. My great-uncle remembers that, when arriving at their level, the young woman burst in the middle of the road, making signs so that they stop, which they did. So she asked if they knew where were the Americans. He remembers perfectly her fascinating beauty in spite of the knocks she received in the face, her youth and desperate energy. Other men were set back and looked exhausted and discouraged, being afraid of encountering again partisans. My great-uncle and his friends advised them to wait for the main column coming from Prague as getting themselves involved to it. The fact is that Weiddinger orders were strict: only the military units belonging to 2. SS-Panzer-Division were concerned by the protocol of surrender. The motorcyclists gave to the group of fugitives their last rations and restarted in the direction of Rokycany.


I asked my great-uncle if, He believed that she belonged to the SS : He said « Maybe an Aufseherin or one of those girls from the SS-Flak, maybe a German of Sudetenland". I showed him the Luftwaffe pants: he answered me by laughing that all the German girls adored the Luftwaffe ski pants and that even SS auxiliary wore it.

He added that she really had something, otherwise He wouldn't have remembered her : "something as a kind of repressed humanity which had just reappeared in the middle of war abjection, probably too late" He also told me that this situation was really really sad because He and his comrades knew from the beginning of this brief encounter that she had been probably raped but that nobody said anything about it.

I asked my relative if he had been able to notice that the LGG had a particular German accent: he told me again that He was sure that she was from Sudetenland.

The second time they were stopped by the LGG in the middle of the road. With her were, as I have already written, several "SS-Oberabschnitt Böhmen-Mähren" survivors of the "Kampfgruppe Wallenstein". « She was very attractive, very agitated, nervous and brave but terrified at the same time ". Several of the soldiers who wear civilian clothes had been also beaten, "certainly in Rokycany", but by civilians, not by partisans "otherwise they would have been killed ».

The most relevant points we can gather from that are:



1. She's from the Sudetenland


2. Probably a SS-/Flakhelferin


3. Mentioned something along the lines about pretty women being raped, so the probablity of rape reemerged ( "He also told me that this situation was really really sad because he and his comrades knew from the beginning of this brief encounter that she had been probably raped but that nobody said anything about it")


4. His impression of her was; "She was very attractive, very agitated, nervous and brave but terrified at the same time"


5. The whole encounter between him and the woman lasted about 10 min at best


6. Also mentions who delivered the beating; "Several of the soldiers who wear civilian clothes had been also beaten, "certainly in Rokycany", but by civilians, not by partisans "otherwise they would have been killed"


7. The video footage of the LGG was shot in a small village called Ejpovice, 10km away from Pilsen near the czech border.


But still no name or any solid evidence about her identity. Her fate is also unkown as the Red Army couldn't be that far away that day as the whole event took place on May 8th 1945, the end of war in europe. Since the footage was shot by the american GI 'Hardlund' it could mean that she survived the pre-post war phase and got taken in as a POW by the US but if she somehow fell into the hands of the Soviets, then her chance of surviving the early hours after the war would be minimal.

[DD66]

.
Do you have any reason for believing that Münchhausen's story is true?