What Room Did Geli Raubal Die In?

[Geli]

I am starting this post as an offshoot of the "Geli Raubal Room" thread, which was about Geli's room in Haus Wachenfeld (the home expanded later into the Berghof). I thought I'd start a thread more specific to where the conversation was headed.

In the other thread, Oberhessin said that Geli did not die in the bedroom near Hitler's, that that was something the police tell people, and that her bedroom was really in the corner, facing Prinzregentenplatz, not the courtyard.

When I toured Prinzregentenplatz 16 in 2005, I asked the police PR person to show me Geli's bedroom, where she died. I was shown Geli's bedroom, which faced the courtyard, but told that she died in "die Ecke," which looks out onto Prinzregentenplatz.

The area the police call "die Ecke" (the corner) is labeled "Wohnzimmer" on the floorplan of the apartment, which was dated September 1935. So, the police were telling me that Geli died in the living room.

When I heard that, I was shocked -- every history book says that Geli died in her bedroom, and that the door was locked. I mentioned this, and the 2 cops with me said that the information in the history books was probably "just rumors."

The police PR rep looked back into her file and read. "Yes," she said, "She died in die Ecke."
My next words were, "Can I have a copy of that?"

The other cop made me a copy of the paper she read from, then I kept asking for more and more copies of documents in their file, so they just let me loose to use the copy machine and their file folder as I wished. But, when I got home and went through my documents, I was heart-broken to see that I had nothing with the words "die Ecke" in it. I had been very eager to translate that passage! This was a major disappointment. I had not come away with groundbreaking historic evidence that Geli killed herself in the living room instead of the bedroom. This was really puzzling. I watched that page get copied for me; what became of it? All I had were the accounts by Georg Winter, Anna Winter, and Maria Reichert that are quoted in all the history books.

I do have a document that says, "Am 18. September 1931 erschoss sich Geli mit der Pistole ihres Onkles im Erkezimmer." I was translating this as, "On September 18, 1931, Geli shot herself with her uncle's pistol in the ______room."

But I can not find a translation for Erkezimmer anywhere, and the 1935 floorplan does not say "Erkezimmer" on it. Perhaps this was a typo for "Eckezimmer?" Maybe that is why the police say she died in the corner?

Are there German-speakers out there who can tell us what Erkezimmer means?

[peeved]

Maybe it should read Erkerzimmer: room with a bay or oriel window (recess) according to http://dictionary.reverso.net/german-en ... rkerzimmer

Markus

[Geli]

Danke, Markus!

If this is the case, then they must have meant the room with the balcony. The room with the balcony is labeled "Wohnzimmer" on the 1935 floorplan.

The document that says she shot herself in the "Erkezimmer" is a summary of Geli's short life...her family tree, where she went to school, etc. The font looks like it was printed with an inkjet printer; it is relatively recent and not a copy of a document from WWII or before. None of the period documents I copied supported this theory that she died in the living room. The accounts by the Winters and Reichert seem to contradict it.

[Geli]

Winters Statesments about the room and what happened.
I have been inside the flat with a guided tout by Munich Police President.
The small room they offer as place of the suicide is a) to small for all the furniture Geli had, b) to close to her unmarried uncle (she was legaly living with Winters and Reicherts!) c) does not match to the witnesses who talked befor 1933 and after 1933 about the death.

Oberhessin, I'd like to discuss your above quote, from the other thread. I have a lot of questions! It seems we were given the same tour but had different guides.

1. How long ago did you tour the apartment?
2. Which room did the Police President says Geli died in? The room facing the courtyard, the room with the balcony, or another room facing Prinzregentenplatz?
3. Which room do you think she died in? The one with the balcony, or another room?
4. How do you know what kind of furntiure Geli had? What is your source for the description of her furniture?
5. Which eyewitness statements disprove what the police told you? Do you have a source?

[Oberhessin]

Thats interesting.
We were told that she died in tne little room beneath Hitlers bedroom.
Erkerrooms are the living room and the library. Both "erker are part of the balcony, and she did not die there. I have a close description of the different person living in this house in 1930-1933, she lived with the Winters and Reicherts.
Maybe, and this would match with the police documents, it meat "Eckzimmer" = room in the corner.
I will have a close look on the description of Mrs. Winter this evening.

[Oberhessin]

Geli, I will go through some of your questions this evening. Allright?
I was inside 2009 als staff member of the NS-Documentation centre. We got a tour by Munich Police president Schmidbauer through the house and Hitler air raid shelter. The room, they offered us a Gelis room was the littele one beneath Hitlers bedroom, with a window to the courtyard.

[Geli]

Geli, I will go through some of your questions this evening. Allright?
I was inside 2009 als staff member of the NS-Documentation centre. We got a tour by Munich Police president Schmidbauer through the house and Hitler air raid shelter. The room, they offered us a Gelis room was the littele one beneath Hitlers bedroom, with a window to the courtyard.

Sure, answer when you have time.

When you say "beneath," I think you mean "beside" or "next to." Beneath is the same as under or below.

Which Documentation center were you a staff member at? I don't remember one in Munich back in 2005. Is it new?

[Oberhessin]

Yes. Will open in 2014.
But "had been" staff there. Things have changed.

The source is: Bayerisches Hauptstaatsarchiv München, MInn 72443, Schlussbericht Selbstmord Raubal.

The description of the room is in Anna Maria Sigmund, Des Führers bester Freund, quoting Anna Winter. It is the room in the corner on the right site if you take a close look on the usual foto "Prinzregentenstraße".

[Geli]

Yes. Will open in 2014.
But "had been" staff there. Things have changed.

Sorry things did not work out. Where will the new Documentation Center be? Is it in Prinzregentenplatz 16?

The source is: Bayerisches Hauptstaatsarchiv München, MInn 72443, Schlussbericht Selbstmord Raubal.

The description of the room is in Anna Maria Sigmund, Des Führers bester Freund, quoting Anna Winter. It is the room in the corner on the right site if you take a close look on the usual foto "Prinzregentenstraße".

Very interesting! What did you find in the archive that disproved what the police told you? Can anyone use the archive? Is it open to the public?

I own a copy of Des Führers bester Freund, but my German is not fluent, so I have not been able to just sit down and read it cover to cover. I have been waiting for an English translation, but as far as I know, no one has translated it yet. Can you tell me the page number of the description of Geli's room? I can read & translate small sections.

Anna Maria Sigmund's books are quite good!

[rickyah]

Geli
have just read your interesting thread.How did you manage to get a tour of the apartment?When I have been there in 2007 and 2009(only outside),I found the local police rather annoyed at me for taking photos and taking an interest.

[palaisfan]

"Geli", all,

Encountered this thread again during an update return to Prinzregentenplatz thread. Are some of you still more interested in the actual incident and circumstances of Geli's death? If so, some discoveries might be relevant if so and would like to pass them on. They might be useful; or maybe redundant. Yet it seems that like some other somewhat complicated or obscure events that architecture may give the best clue which witnesses are most reliable or more reliable.

How do members rate the Ronald Hayman book "Hitleer+Geli" [1997] on the rendering of the incident itself? Its takes on Hitler's psychology and relationships seem rather reaching, but the soundness of those isn't the issue. Can't decide how much to trust of its paraphrasings, and unfortunately it doesn't give any extensive quotes of the police report. (Does any book reproduce it?) The actual wording could be important for the flow of events claimed. (On the other hand, Hayman does make important use of Henrietta Schirach's book "Frauen um Hitler" - useful direct quotes as will post presently) But ever since the excellent work "Hitler at Home" by Despina Stratigakos came out, it has been possible to re-examine the setting a little better.

As discussed on page 7 of this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=160867&start=90
it appears Stratigakos all but says that Geli's "preserved" room was the single-window one facing Prinzregentplatz right, east, of the large two window one; it can also be described as the one beside and west of the 1935 Library. The reasoning is persuasive, but it would mean its not the west-most single window one or modern exercise room.

Anyway, where all this comes into play is in Hayman's book you read of sounds heard "from the kitchen" or after an altercation in the Dining Room. The architecture matters here. It is just possible the police report makes off-hand mentions of rooms that would give clues where they can be found. Even what has been quoted can be revealing. The Jugendstill style of the building provided double-doors for all three rooms facing Prinzregentenplatz and this is a pre-Troost element so was present in 1931 just as Hayman's book quote suggests.

The apartment was remodeled considerably by Gerdy Troost in 1935. The 1931 look would be somewhat different; though it is possible the 1935 remodel kept similar positions for a given room while greatly enhancing it. There were a few social events held in the apartment before 1935 and those handful of pictures give some clues as well.

Here is a very generic visual guide, based on the pre-reconstruction plan in Stratigakos book. (Which cannot be recommended too much---anyone interested in the architecture and history of the period will find it invaluable. Its in print and even available on Kindle. "Hitler at Home" - ISBN 978-0-300-18381-8)

On this have placed rooms reasonably determined for 1931. The ? mark of the two in the wedged Foyer Halle is because both of these commonly debated images remain uncertain. Also tentative is the Geli Room pictures which next post will narrow on more some of the criteria that must be met to be confident have the right one. And a looming question is indeed which type of room did she die in (was it really a bedroom?) to put it in a less confusing manner.

[Adapted from "Hitler at Home" Despina Stratigakos. Yale University Press, 2017. - ISBN 978-0-300-18381-8]

Remark: Looking at the plan slightly suggests the pre-1935 Dining Room of these events may very well be where the 1935 Library later was; or could have been two of the rooms facing Regetenplatz. I didn't mark it though, because four rooms could fit the look of the rectangular table and doors glimpsed in backgrounds. It could even be in the east bay of the Living Room or where the larger Dining Room ends up. Too many choices. But the closer it is to Geli's room and the kitchen in turn, the more the events claimed by the witnesses begin to make sense.

Crop of a forthcoming rough plan be posting on the apartment thread of how looked 1935-1945; repeated here to better illustrate the reasoning

crop-of-northern-face-PrinzRegent.jpg (55.28 KiB) Viewed 1451 times

[palaisfan]

The above is the best estimate of the 1931 layout.

Now for determining Geli's room, there is arguably a question mark what TYPE of room she died in. The general accounts actually imply the accident/suicide -- it can be termed "incident" to avoid a judgement -- happened in the late afternoon of September 18, 1931. Some time after Hitler drove away for Hamburg via Nuremberg. Some even suggest after starting an incomplete letter. This actually could imply a room not associated with sleeping--- indeed, a `living room' if one existed. It so happens one does later--- in 1945 the two window room is called a Living room, while not being the "main" bay window one associated with Hitler's desk and the famous Chamberlain sitting area.

The sources seem to agree that Geli's room was preserved, "shrine like" with everything as it was. But this doesn't really say what type of room it was. What a little unclear on, and which is important, is did she have more than one? Some accounts say "her rooms" were preserved. Did she in fact have a typical living room adjacent to a bedroom space arrangement (just as you also find with Eva Braun in the Chancellery)? Leave that aside for now.

At the start of the thread "Geli" posted this quote:

Am 18. September 1931 erschoss sich Geli mit der Pistole ihres Onkles im Erkezimmer

This seems to be one of the primary sources for the use of `corner room'. Now what makes this interesting is there are alternatives to a (potentially misleading) rendering of "corner" room.

iPhone translate renders this at once in English as: "in the back room"

Whereas Google Translate renders it:

"On September 18, 1931, Geli shot herself with her uncle's pistol in the chimney room"

Chimney seems absurd (but maybe contains a clue) but arguably, "back room" has a ring of truth to it. It might be more correct than `corner' or `Living room' either one. It might fit the very odd vagueness surrounding the witnesses choice of words overall. Its makes a critical difference if it was definitely `corner' or was somehow a mangled reference to something less precise.

[Edit: the same translator also at certain ranges indeed renders Makcus' take of `Oriel room' -- indeed a bay window or porch style window. If true, this somehow means the Living Room. It more goes how to show the word is more confusing than helpful here]

The point being that "back room" is both plausible, and imprecise enough to explain much of the confusion. We can probably set it aside as distracting, when considering other evidence to place the room. In any case, it should not be cited as a "disproof" of another location without more support. The safer thing to do is to leave the question open and use other evidence.

It is true not much documentation for the 1929-1934 period is extant, but you can work backwards from what the 1935-1945 layout was. Despite the relative sparseness of photos of the apartment, fortunately there are enough where only two rooms really are in question. And these seem to have photos too -- and show particular items inside them. The challenge arises whether Geli's room can be affirmed as one of these based on known pieces of furniture or belongings? One side effect of all being preserved as it was, it explains items that survived post-war being so specific to that 1931 period (see next)

When you go to alamy.com and put in simply `prinzregentenplatz' as search term, something rather amazing comes up. Various items that when you mouse-over the descriptions, reveal some real gems. Especially the lease agreement. Even specific items of Geli's are here -- probably the room was simply emptied not long after the May 1945 pictures were taken, but possibly in a somewhat orderly fashion to be on alamy this way. Certainly appear authentic. Difficult to say.

Will come back to this later