Range of Partisans?

[Biber]

Update:

Thanks to all who have posted here and elswhere. While still a novice at this I've learned quite a bit and have been able to track down for myself some important pieces to the puzzle. But I still need some help.

I managed to locate the complete situation map for 1 July 1941 (sincere thanks to GregSingh for putting this on my radar) and have posted an inset for the area I (we) believe is the Krasnovka from the Motele story. Can anyone help me to flesh out exactly what German forces/troops are indicated? Also, can anyone suggest the meaning of the small red circled X which is, perhaps coincidentally, in the exact vicinity of "Krasnovka"? It appears on the maps for July 1, 3, and 5. Any ideas?

1Julyinset.gif (106.73 KiB) Viewed 1074 times

3Julyinset.gif (60.83 KiB) Viewed 1074 times

[Biber]

My guesses are 3rd Motorized Army Corps, 14th and 13th Panzer divisions; 25th motorized infantry; and a bit south, the 48th motorized Army corps, etc...

Am I even remotely close?

[GregSingh]

According to NARA T315 R640 000351, on the 3rd of July at 4:45am, Schtz.Reg.93 (from 13th Panzer D.) started to move from a bridgehead over Horyn River east of Buhryn towards Franowka and Symonow; and then (000356) was ordered to Rusywel, while the rest of the division was moving towards Zawrow - Duliby.

But that means first Germans in Kranowka would arrive in the morning of the 3rd of July, not the 1st as you wrote in the earlier post.

That crossed small red circle seems to be around town of Hoszcza / Hoshcha / Гоща, which was about a mile from Krasnowka.
Usually that symbol means encircled and destroyed Soviet forces, but in this case I'm not sure.

[Biber]

Yes, I've encountered the July 3rd date at a site giving a history of Symoniv. At least it's in the relatively same time frame of the original source for the Motele Story. I'm not so sure much need be made of that though. So many of the details of the story just don't line up very neatly.

[Biber]

Back up to the Divisionsbefehl Nr.9 of the 30th of June (T315/R640: 000347), Krosnowka is even mentioned (#3):

Am I correct in interpreting this as tasking the Gruppe Rödlich with expanding the bridgehead on the Tessow/Franowka road, including the area of ridge 215 and the stream near Kronowka and providing security along the line to the east? So that does indeed put German troops in the vicinity on the first of July.

Could someone flesh out for me the abbreviations of the indicated forces constituting the Gruppe Rödlich?

To put a face on the subject, Rödlich: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/ ... 1261734140 (from an album discussed on the Wehrmacht-awards forum).

[Biber]

?
4th Panzer regiment;
2nd Artillery Regiment of the 13th panzer;
1st Panzer Pioneer Kompanie (mechanized combat engineer company)
1st Panzer Jaeger Kompanie (Antitank Company);

[BarKokhba]

Hello Bieber, I stumbled upon your most interesting thread, which started as your son's homework assignment and ended up to be yours. I have read numerous accounts of Jewish partisan resistance groups over the past 40 years and most of them have very common themes, which must be considered in your effort (and which you may already be aware of). Most groups were between 20-60 people, with a core of relatives. The Bielsky Brothers were a rare exception, having as many as 300 at one point. All were on the run on foot, with carts often hand-pulled. Militarily their actions were minimal, as they were mostly trying to hide and survive. Actions were mostly related to sorties, raids on farms and isolated warehouses, attacks on isolated rail lines and radio installations. There also were occasional retribution raids against isolated local persecutors of Jews, and raids on farms for food and clothing. Besides anti-Jewish and anti-partisan sweeps by Nazi forces, the biggest problem was encounters with other partisan groups in the forest who were anti-nazi but also anti-Jewish. Virtually every Jewish source tells of attacks, raids, bad encounters with other partisan groups menacing the handful of surviving Jews. Even when Jewish groups encountered and were sometimes absorbed by advancing Red Army units, it often did not turn out well for the Jews.

I was wondering, is there any actual documentary proof of this bombing of German troops billeted in that town? My thought is that it is a myth, or a highly exaggerated account of a much smaller bombing somewhere else, otherwise it would be part of local and Jewish lore. Keep up the good work!

[wm]

According to Ukrainian sources there was a bombing in October 1943, and it's results (including casualties) are unknown.

Saying that the other partisan groups were anti-Semitic is painting with too broad a brush. At that time Ukrainian nationalists were ethnically cleansing (and that meant all nationalities living there) Western Ukraine so only large and strong non-Ukrainian partisan groups were able to survive there. They were basically fighting everybody.

In many other cases the goal was to confiscate their weapons, or rob the wealth, it was assumed, they had with them. In latter case frequently it was criminal groups (which quite often were a part of some partisan unit anyway) which did it.
Frequently it was just a retribution for Jewish raids on local peasants, who were protected by or lived on a territory controlled by some partisan unit.
Partisan-on-partisan attacks happened quite frequently anyway for various reasons, it wasn't like only the Jewish ones were attacked.

[wm]

I managed to locate the complete situation map for 1 July 1941 (sincere thanks to GregSingh for putting this on my radar) and have posted an inset for the area I (we) believe is the Krasnovka from the Motele story. Can anyone help me to flesh out exactly what German forces/troops are indicated? Also, can anyone suggest the meaning of the small red circled X which is, perhaps coincidentally, in the exact vicinity of "Krasnovka"?

It seems the Germans used strangely small maps, maybe this is why they lost the war?
It would be fascinating to see them in their full glory.

And to know what happened there so it deserved the red X...

[BarKokhba]

Thanks WM for the response. I agree that Ukrainian independence groups were fighting 'everybody' but their historic antisemitism is well recorded, see Chiemelnicki, their national hero and great Jew-slaughterer. My research shows, in Jewish resisistance memoirs, letters, military reports and books (such as by Abba Kovner) a nearly universal reporting of attacks and reprisals against Jewish groups in the forest by even anti-Nazi Polish, Russian and Ukrainian groups strictly for anti-Jewish reasons, not tactical or any other. This is a very sad chapter in WW2 history, where even Nazi brutality could not overcome historic antisemitism to create a unified front. It was only after the Red Army came in from the east that they 'pacified' the resistance, absorbed some fighting units (excluding many Jewish groups) and drove to Berlin.

[Biber]

Sorry to be a bit late getting back to the thread. Somehow my email notification failed and I didn't notice. This has indeed been quite a trip for me and I don't expect it to end but maybe fizzle out at some point. Hopefully not for a while as I'm kinda enjoying it all. I'm still tracking things down as I think of them. From all my reading and searching the one thing I've come to realize is that Ukraine wasn't a great place to be in the early 40s! An understatement I know. There was such little regard for life that apparently it didn't seem to matter who you were, there was always the risk of being killed for what ever reason, and not just the Jews. It's simply incredible that it actually happened. The sheer numbers of deaths just "because" staggers the mind.

WM surely you're not serious about the small maps? My impression was that they're quite large on the order of feet x feet (like 4x8 or something VERY large like that). Anyway I was able to find what I need free online. If your interested:https://yadi.sk/public/?hash=VtFhKmhNax ... NbY0ZSA%3D and http://www.maps4u.lt/en/maps.php?cat=77

But, yes, it would be great to see one up close and in person.

As for actually confirming the story of the explosion, I still haven't actually done that but I'm still looking. Maybe curiosity will get the better of me yet and I'll actually spring for the $125 film reel with the Korueck 580 records for Sept-Oct '43.

[BarKokhba]

Welcome back Biber. The Yad Vashem website has archives of Jewish resistance in Ukraine. That may shed light on the story of the child resistance fighter and the bomb story.

[GregSingh]

You can get October-November 1943 diaries for free. wm wrote that according to Ukrainian sources bombing in Owrutsch happened in October.
It's close to 1500 pages...

[Biber]

I've looked at the Oct/Nov diaries and didn't see anything. I'll need to look again though, especially to double check what date they start on. It's September that I've been interested in. That Reel (T501 R81) isn't available for free. According to the story the partisan group was absorbed into the Red Army, and the boy was killed in action on Oct 14. So I'm hesitant to place the event very far into October if at all, so as to allow time for assimilation into the military.

Regarding the October date, WM was probably referring to the Kaplyuk story, which was discredited yet nonetheless referenced in a recent email from the Ovruch town council (see above posts for 7 & 18 November). That the council would reference the incident, to me suggests that at least something happened. After all they're actually on the ground there and should probably know their own history (an assumption I know). Yet the discrediting of the Kapyluk account also suggests that what happened may have been not much if indeed anything. (The Motele story as well for that matter) Frankly I'm not sure what to make of it, so I'll go with at least something taking place, that is, until (if) I can find confirmation one way or another. I've also seen a version of the Kaplyuk story that puts it much earlier in 1943, Jan/Feb or so. As I can tell Kapuluk was discredited on many fronts with regard to his stories, taking credit for others' actions. Saburov, I understand was also known for this. So it isn't inconceivable that Kapyluk claimed credit for the young boy's sabotage of the officer's club. Still I'm interested to confirm that something happened and what it was regardless of who did it.

This has all been akin to trying to confirm an urban legend. There's many elements to track down - dates and places, all of which are questionable and very much complicated by language/spelling/alphabet.

[wm]

This what Alexander Gogun wrote in his Stalin’s Commandos: Ukrainian Partisan Forces on the Eastern Front about that event:

A trip to Ovruch undertaken by a working group on 18 November 2009 helped determine the fact that no destruction of the Gebietskommissariat had over taken place. First of all, the building that was blown up was not an administrative one but a residential building containing 32 apartments. Second, this building was rebuilt after the war, since only part of it had been destroyed. Third, a female eyewitness reported that she was personally acquainted with Yakiv Kapliuk, who told her that he blew up the building where the Germans were living at a time when there were no Germans there, and that there were absolutely no victims." These statements were indirectly corroborated by the testimony of another female resident of Ovruch, who could not recall any shootings of hostages,"' the Germans' standard measures following the death of any of their compatriots.

WM surely you're not serious about the small maps? My impression was that they're quite large on the order of feet x feet (like 4x8 or something VERY large like that).

I meant the maps published here, above.
But of course I was wrong the original scans are of bad quality, and nothing better can't be extracted from them.
But at least I've found that the red X wasn't near Krasnowka, it was the hill 208 on the road to Hoszcza.

208g.jpg (46.19 KiB) Viewed 900 times

I agree that Ukrainian independence groups were fighting 'everybody' but their historic antisemitism is well recorded, see Chiemelnicki, their national hero and great Jew-slaughterer.

Khmelnytsky was a rebellion of the oppressed against the oppressor: the Polish "lords" and their Jewish servants. Although such a modern language made little sense then - they only could have replaced their oppressors, but couldn't get rid of them. Their leader had other goals on his mind anyway.
As to the sad chapter I think all sides should be consulted before giving a verdict so I have a contrary opinion too, but maybe its not a good place for it